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> > Big Pond Midge
| PaulRoberts | February 1st, 2015, 11:16 pm | |
 Posts: 1776 | This came from a Colorado pond. Phantom midge? Can anyone tell by the image? EDIT: Since Chaoborus is not a likely candidate I've re-named the thread.  | |
| Entoman | February 2nd, 2015, 2:34 am | |
 Posts: 2604 | Hey Paul, The phantom midge adults I've seen have longer spotted wings. They are a really cool (and valuable) bug. In their larval stage they are almost clear and have antennae evolved to capture and crush their favorite prey, mosquito larvae! Looks like an exceptionally pale blood midge adult to me, but I could be wrong. How big was it? | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 2nd, 2015, 3:35 am | |
Posts: 1776 | BIG! Size 16, or better. I noticed the longer abdomen on this one compared to images I could find for Chaoborus. BY "blood midge" do you mean a Chironomid? This one lacks the fuzzy antennae. Female? | |
| Millcreek | February 2nd, 2015, 9:04 am | |
| Healdsburg, CA Posts: 356 | Paul- Here's a page from Bugguide on Chaoborus. Most are spotted but a few aren't. The ones that don't have the fuzzy antennae are the females. http://bugguide.net/node/view/41232 | |
| PaulRoberts | February 2nd, 2015, 7:47 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Thanks guys. I'd seen the Bugguide images. I did find some Chironomid images that look similar too. The two have such different life histories however -the larvae in particular have such different habits. Mine came from a eutrophic warmwater pond and the food chain is nearly ruled by these guys when they emerge. The biggest bluegills in the pond sound like popcorn, and then big wakes tear through those 'gills, scattering them. Even the biggest perch and some cats get in on it. Emergences are not only important to trout fishers, although bass fishers don't seem to notice. Considering the habitat, and the fact that some of the cats I’ve taken home from this pond contain bottom ooze and bloodworms, the best bet may be a Chironomid. I’ll look into it some more to see if there might be Chaoborus present. This particular pond does have a “deep” side –about 16ft. Not sure if that’s deep enough for Chaoborus to survive predation there. It’s one lively pond in that regard:    | |
| Crepuscular | February 2nd, 2015, 9:16 pm | |
 Posts: 923 | Paul I typically run into Chaoborus in association with culicidae larvae. Most often in temporary pool habitat especially in the vernal pools in the spring with Ochelerotatus canadensis, Ochelerotatus stimulans and other springtime mosquitoes and in floodwater pools in association with Aedes vexans, and Ochlerotatus trivittatus here in PA during the summer. In my experience the Chaoborus larvae that I find are only in pretty clean waters. I have some photos somewhere I can't find them right now but I'll keep looking, they might be at my office. Your photo does not look like any adult Chaborus I've ever seen but that doesn't mean much I haven't seen all that many. I usually deal with the larvae, but I have reared a few out. | |
| Creno | February 2nd, 2015, 9:17 pm | |
| Grants Pass, OR Posts: 305 | Paul - you should be happy I never found that pond - perch that size would be long gone! Best fish fry in NA! Your critter is almost undoubtedly a female Chironomus. | |
| PaulRoberts | February 2nd, 2015, 10:31 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Thanks, Eric. That 'clean water' comment makes some sense, allowing me to place them a bit better ecologically -possibly. I'd read of (predaceous) Chaoborus in lake basins that exhibit vertical migrations. Your comment about their association with 'clean water' has me wondering if the accounts I've read were in more oligotrophic waters. I promised myself I'd never get too deeply into the midges, lol, but I'm a curious sort, esp when fish are involved. Thanks so much, Dave. Yes, there was a decent year class of those tasty perch in that pond. While bass fishing, I'd catch 1 to 3 11"-13"ers a trip there around 2010. I planned to just target the perch some but never did. The pond took a big hit from the nearly biblical flooding a couple years ago and I'm afraid of what I will find upon my return. I fear siltation will be devastating. :( PM sent. | |
| Entoman | February 2nd, 2015, 10:46 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | By "blood midge" do you mean a Chironomid? This one lacks the fuzzy antennae. Female? Yes is my best guess to both questions, Paul. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 2nd, 2015, 11:52 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Chironomus (Lobochironomus) dorsalis? http://www.commanster.eu/commanster/Insects/Flies/SuFlies/Chironomus.dorsalis.html  I found this strikingly similar Chironomus: Chironomus dorsalis, a species described as holarctic in distribution. I suppose if any insect group could have intercontinental species, it would be the midges. It's described (in French) as 8mm and "rose colored"-got the size and color. I found it on a European site, but I see Chironomus dorsalis mentioned in Russia, UK, France, Italy, and a mention of “North American material” in a discussion over whether C. longipes (from Japan) and dorsalis are synonomous. (Apparently, Spies, M. and Sæther, O.A. (2004) confirmed the synonymy.) So…mebbe*. http://genetics.unimelb.edu.au/Martin/NACytfiles/Sp4g.htm: Species 4g. Chironomus (Lobochironomus) dorsalis Meigen, 1818. A Russian paper, after karotype structure mapping, claims dorsalis: “...should be considered as more primitive and ancestral to other cytocomplexes of the genus Chironomus Meigen, 1803.” Emergence dates range from April to November (no surprise). Mine (whatever they really were) were popping in mid-April (15th). *(Apologies to Dave and others who might reasonably be offended by my attempts at identification via Google images… and of a Chironomid midge for Pete’s sake! In my defense I claim that I am but a lowly fisherman -whose been known to be happy with catfish. Go ahead call me a bottom feeder, a bloodworm sucker!) | |
| Taxon | February 3rd, 2015, 12:41 pm | |
 Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | Hi Paul- Have no reason to doubt the genus being Chironomus. However, ITIS lists its North American species distribution as including only: Chironomus anonymus Williston Chironomus anthracinus Zetterstedt, 1860 Chironomus athalassicus Cannings, 1975 Chironomus atrella (Townes, 1945) Chironomus atritibia Malloch, 1934 Chironomus atroviridis (Townes, 1945) Chironomus attenuatus Walker, 1848 Chironomus bimaculus Walker, 1848 Chironomus biseta (Townes, 1945) Chironomus borealis Curtis, 1835 Chironomus boydi Chironomus brevipalpis (Kieffer, 1926) Chironomus brunneipennis Johannsen, 1905 Chironomus carus (Townes, 1945) Chironomus chelonia (Townes, 1945) Chironomus crassicaudatus Malloch, 1915 Chironomus cucini Webb, 1969 Chironomus decorus Johannsen, 1905 Chironomus decumbens Malloch, 1934 Chironomus edwardsi Kruseman Chironomus equisitus Chironomus esakii Tokunaga Chironomus excavatus Kieffer, 1917 Chironomus excisus Kieffer, 1917 Chironomus frommeri Atchley and Martin, 1971 Chironomus halophilus Packard, 1873 Chironomus harti Malloch, 1915 Chironomus hawaiiensis Grimshaw Chironomus hyperboreus Staeger, 1845 Chironomus jacundus Walker Chironomus major Wulker and Bulter, 1983 Chironomus maturus Johannsen, 1908 Chironomus melanderi Kieffer, 1917 Chironomus nigritibia Walker, 1848 Chironomus ochreatus (Townes, 1945) Chironomus pallidivittatus Malloch, 1915 Chironomus pauciplumatus Hardy, 1960 Chironomus pilicornis (Fabricius, 1794) Chironomus plumosus (Linnaeus, 1758) Chironomus prior Butler, 1982 Chironomus pungens (Townes, 1945) Chironomus redeuns Walker Chironomus riparius Meigen, 1804 Chironomus salinarius Kieffer, 1915 Chironomus samoensis Edwards, 1928 Chironomus sanctipaula Sublette, 1966 Chironomus staegeri Lundbeck, 1898 Chironomus stigmaterus Say, 1823 Chironomus stylifera Johannsen Chironomus subtendens Townes Chironomus tamapullus (Sasa, 1981) Chironomus tardus Butler, 1982 Chironomus tentans Fabricius, 1805 Chironomus trichomerus Walker, 1848 Chironomus tuberculatus (Townes, 1945) Chironomus tuxis Curran, 1930 Chironomus utahensis Malloch, 1915 Chironomus viridulus Linnaeus Chironomus vockerothi Rasmussen, 1984 Chironomus whitseli Sublette and Sublette, 1974 Chironomus yoshimatsui Martin and Sublette, 1972 I believe Chironomus dorsalis to be limited to a European distribution in the countries of Belgium, France, Germany, and Netherlands. | |
| Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 3rd, 2015, 9:44 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Thanks, Roger. How about subgenus Lobochironomus? I got the above info from Jon Martin's lab at the University of Melbourne. I have no idea how relevant his methods are in the world of Chironomus-ology. His lab certainly couldn't be any further away from NA than it is: http://www.genetics.unimelb.edu.au/Martin/NACytfiles/NAChiron.html North American Chironomus species (Updated 1 December 2014). | |
| Taxon | February 4th, 2015, 4:43 am | |
Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | Hi Paul- I believe the taxonomic level of subgenus to simply be a technique for grouping species with a same characteristic. In the case of Lobochironomus, that characteristic is: superior volsella with swollen base and narrow tip. However, I believe that all living things are uniquely identified by their (binomial) genus and species. Does that sound right to you? | |
| Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Entoman | February 4th, 2015, 12:27 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | I'm not aware of any angling source that has gone to the trouble of determining species. The "big three" give us enough headaches. :) I would be shocked if the name "Blood Midge" doesn't cover many species and most likely genera. It is used to describe large chironomids that live and provide angling opportunities in many of our Western lakes and ponds. I see no reason why this wouldn't be true back East as well for they certainly exist there. Many species (if not most) in this family have larvae with large amounts of hemoglobin to assist in utilizing meager oxygen from deep water and the ooze they inhabit - hence the color. Why some retain this coloration in adulthood and are also usually quite large (I've seen adults as big as a long shank 12) would be interesting to find out. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 5th, 2015, 9:47 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Hi Paul- Hi Roger, Gee, at such a scale, I would have no idea. It appears that the designations we have don't suffice when describing all the potential variation across subpopulations that make up "species". I see your point, I think: After species, further resolution rapidly becomes impractical –certainly to the angler. I guess I’d like to know how that big midge behaves in my fishing waters, so I can take advantage of their (notable) presence. If, as Kurt suggests, that knowing them as “blood worms” suffices, I’ll go with it, however grumpily. Thanks for the help with this Eric, Kurt, Dave, and Roger. At least I'm closer on the genus. I can stop considering the deep basin of the lake and look more towards the mucky flats and coves. | |
| Taxon | February 9th, 2015, 3:52 pm | |
Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | Hi Paul- I sent your photo to a longtime internet friend, Ethan Bright, Museum of Zoology Insect Division and School of Natural Resources and Environment University of Michigan, along with the following note: This Dipteran adult, which I presume to be a Chironomid, was photographed by Paul Roberts on a Colorado pond. It is my hope that, based on its rather distinctive red femurs, you might some idea concerning its identification, which you can either post to http://www.troutnut.com/topic/8739/Chaoborus, or I would be happy to post in your name. And, I received the following reply from Ethan this morning: I can’t really tell but my gut feeling is that it’s some sort of tanypodinae, perhaps Procladius. But, I really can’t tell well, I wish there was some scale in the picture. And, of course, to have the specimen on hand to really examine it. Sorry I couldn’t be of more help. Best regards, | |
| Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 10th, 2015, 8:57 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Thanks so much, Roger, and Ethan. I read that the Tanypodinae are predators (possibly moreso as they mature) of muck bottoms, feeding on Chironomids and Tubificids as well as algae, diatoms, and detritus. There are two large midges in my ponds (and more small ones): a sooty gray, and the above one. Looks like I’ll be paying closer attention in the future; who knows where a little knowledge will lead (if not to confusion :) ). Interestingly, I saw a midge emergence (tiny guys) in November one year that had hordes of bluegills rising mid-pond in 45F water! I didn’t have my float tube that day so I do not know if the bass were there too. One of the best emergences I fish (for bass) is of a blue damselfly that pops starting in May. Again, the ‘gills sound like popcorn in the developing milfoil and there are surges from the bass too. Those damsels bring some predictable and exciting fishing. | |
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