Troutnut.com Fly Fishing for Trout Home
User Password
or register.
Scientific name search:

> > need an Id



Sandfly has attached these 2 pictures to aid in identification. The message is below.
Shown Full Size
Shown Full Size
Post Reply
SandflyJanuary 15th, 2015, 10:40 am
tioga co. pa.

Posts: 33		hatches in june,
sandfly
shop owner
N.J.B.B.A. #2215
Tiadaughton T.U. 688
I didn't Escape------They gave me a day pass !
MartinlfJanuary 15th, 2015, 10:49 am
Moderator
Palmyra PA

Posts: 3233		Size?
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'"

--Fred Chappell
SandflyJanuary 15th, 2015, 11:15 am
tioga co. pa.

Posts: 33		size 16 hook
sandfly
shop owner
N.J.B.B.A. #2215
Tiadaughton T.U. 688
I didn't Escape------They gave me a day pass !
EntomanJanuary 15th, 2015, 3:20 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604		The stout body and dramatic abdominal taper point to the genus Drunella. Telling the female adults apart taxonomically is way beyond my feeble skills but this specimen's size is on the small side for cornuta. My guess would be either cornutella or lata. From an angling perspective it's probably a distinction without a difference. Both are commonly called Small Blue-winged Olives.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularJanuary 15th, 2015, 4:06 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923		Pine Creek? Right after the drakes? Drunella tuberculata

see here: http://www.troutnut.com/topic/6711/2/Pine-Creek-Ephemerellid#31584
TimmanJanuary 15th, 2015, 4:33 pm
Banned
white deer pike PA

Posts: 10		I vote for lata. The abdomen in thinner than tuberculata like the sample posted.
Fake account made by Brookyman (who was banned for threatening another user)
CrepuscularJanuary 15th, 2015, 5:53 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
I vote for lata. The abdomen in thinner than tuberculata like the sample posted.


What if she already laid her eggs?
TimmanJanuary 15th, 2015, 6:09 pm
Banned
white deer pike PA

Posts: 10		To the best of my knowledge the only time the abdomen shrinks is when the adults reach the dehydration stage within hours of termination. I could be a Drunella tuberculata I just think lata is more likely.
Fake account made by Brookyman (who was banned for threatening another user)
CrepuscularJanuary 15th, 2015, 7:53 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
To the best of my knowledge the only time the abdomen shrinks is when the adults reach the dehydration stage within hours of termination. I could be a Drunella tuberculata I just think lata is more likely.


Oh yeah it could be D.lata but I think the abdomen has to contract a little after oviposition.And the way the female in the photo is holding her abdomen like there used to be a ball of eggs there tells me she has already deposited her eggs. Based on my experience with Pine Creek in June, D. tuburculata is a very significant emergence. I hope sandfly responds with where it was collected. So I suppose like Kurt pointed out once again faced with a female of a genus that is not easy under good circumstances to separate out the species. At least we are close on genus. ;)
PaulRobertsJanuary 15th, 2015, 10:12 pm
Colorado

Posts: 1776		Pure awesomeness.
TimmanJanuary 15th, 2015, 10:16 pm
Banned
white deer pike PA

Posts: 10		Contraction and shrinkage are two different actions. The 8th - 10th look ever thin on the sample and thicker on the tuberculata specimen. That viewpoint is based on and is more visible in photo #2

She may have egged out, it is tough to say but it looks like both tuberculata & lata are very plausible.
Fake account made by Brookyman (who was banned for threatening another user)
EntomanJanuary 15th, 2015, 10:29 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604		Ah, I think you're probably right, Eric. Local info is always the best. I shouldn't have limited it to those two by implication. Walkeri was another viable option I neglected to mention as well. I see nothing in the photos that helps taxonomically to rule any of them out. Heck, I can't even eliminate cornuta with absolute certainty - though I think I'm probably safe based on size and time of year with that one.

The curved abdominal posture is common with all ephemerellid females. A foreshortening and loss of mass occurs during ovipositing and that has certainly occurred here. However, I'm not sure of the relevance as any differences in general abdominal conformation between these species have not been documented as having any diagnostic value to my knowledge.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
TimmanJanuary 16th, 2015, 12:34 am
Banned
white deer pike PA

Posts: 10		This is a good conversation; I haven’t seen either species in person in years, however;

When a larva molts to the adult stage only the digestive track is discarded to make why for reproductive organs, which commonly takes place in the last instars of the larva stage. Inside the exoskeleton all of the respiratory, vascular systems, and muscular structure remain intact. And, the spiracles replace the gills in the adult stages. Even at the point of dehydration the shell dimensions of the abdomen remain the same. At the point of expiration the abdomen laterally flattens out and collapses in the male, and becomes indentures on the ventral side in the females. The shell circumference from spiracle fold to spiracle fold, remains the same size as it was before dehydration or ovipositing in the female.

In other words if I measure the males abdomen per-death and it is 1.75mm high. After dehydration that number is the same only the lateral measurement has changed not the height. In the female it is opposite the height changes because of the concave compression in sternites 1-7 to the ventral side caused from dehydration with or without eggs present in the cavity.

Foreshortening is the better word for the contraction process that takes place after ovipositing. So if the sample is alive and in overall health only the length should change slightly.


In a great conversation it’s not the right or wrong it all about the content :-)


.
Fake account made by Brookyman (who was banned for threatening another user)
SandflyJanuary 19th, 2015, 11:40 am
tioga co. pa.

Posts: 33		 She had laid the eggs against the house right before this pic was taken
sandfly
shop owner
N.J.B.B.A. #2215
Tiadaughton T.U. 688
I didn't Escape------They gave me a day pass !
MiltRPowellJanuary 26th, 2015
Posts: 106Sandfly, really enjoyed the post, nice photos,great reads on guys thoughts, veiws. I read it threw twice. I'll just wonder what you named the babies.L.O.L.-M.R.P.

flyfishingthecreekM.R.P.

Quick Reply

You have to be logged in to post on the forum. It's this easy:
Username:          Email:

Password:    Confirm Password:

I am at least 13 years old and agree to the rules.

Related Discussions

TitleRepliesLast Reply
Re: Insect photos on CatskillFlies website
In the Mayfly Genus Ephemerella by Jpsully		4May 24, 2008
by Softhackle
Re: Lots of new specimens today (June 4th) from PA
In General Discussion by Troutnut		8Jun 5, 2007
by Dinerobyn
Re: Drunella in the Smokies
In the Mayfly Species Drunella tuberculata by Konchu		6Jan 4, 2010
by Konchu
Re: larvae vs nymph
In the Identify This! Board by Billq		7Nov 5, 2018
by Wbranch
Re: Ephemerellinae
In the Mayfly Family Ephemerellidae by GONZO		7Oct 4, 2008
by GONZO
Dytiscid Adults
In the Identify This! Board by Taxon		0
Re: Pine Creek Ephemerellid
In the Photography Board by Crepuscular		33Jun 12, 2012
by Entoman
Re: A Couple Bugs I Ran Into Yesterday
In the Identify This! Board by DayTripper		7May 12, 2008
by GONZO
Re: Something for the Mayfly folks
In General Discussion by Creno		19Dec 22, 2013
by Brookyman
Re: A little somethin somethin
In the Identify This! Board by DayTripper		4Jun 10, 2013
by Oldredbarn