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> > This one should start some discussion!
| Oldredbarn | February 22nd, 2014, 1:01 am | |
 Posts: 2608 | http://www.overmywaders.com/index.php?nelson I'm up watching speed skating, being Dutch and all, and was surfing Reed's Blog, "Over My Waders", and ran in to this. Before you comment there are two rules. 1) You must have read the whole article...It is a bit long. 2) No comments concerning my being a fishing vegetarian (vego since 16, 60 as I write this), and my last trout dinner being 1968. I really don't know why these other nations bother to skate against us Hans Brinker types?! :) Tim...There is an interesting section in the article that claims that catch-and-release was started on our Au Sable in the early 50's...I was always under the impression that it didn't happen until the late 80's sometime...My impression was that the Angler's of the Au Sable came in to existence because the national TU and others didn't support catch-and-release. If you wish and have a moment, maybe you could speak to the "civil war" that nearly ensued during the debate... We have very little "no-kill" waters in a state that is known for its amount of rivers and lakes. There are two sections on the Au Sable, the so-called Holy Water on the mainstream, and the section in the Mason Tract on the South Branch. There is Wakeley Lake, a stretch of the Pere Marquette, and a stretch of the Huron River west of Ann Arbor that is catch-and-release for Small-mouth bass. Have at it boys...and Casey! :) Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | February 22nd, 2014, 3:14 am | |
 Posts: 2604 | So, the catch & eat crowd is now teaming up with the animal rights activists? If we can't denude a stream of fish life we'll see to it that nobody gets to fish, huh? Ok, so we're a bunch of torturers and sadists for wanting to fish solely for fun. All I know is that there are now hundreds of beautiful waters teeming with healthy populations of wild fish where before they struggled for survival in meager numbers from worm and planter truck. The rights crowd haven't spent a penny on reviving our fisheries to my knowledge... And never will. They're spending their money on drones to catch a cowboy branding a steer or a farmer that won't let his poultry run loose. Lebensraum for chickens is their concern. The anthropomorphizers have got the whole culture turned so upside down that it's no longer recognizable. I saw a local news report this Winter that scared the hell out of me. A deer got trapped in ice. Instead of some local putting it out of its misery from a safe distance with a rifle, the Fire Dept. Rescue squad was called out. One guy broke trough and got swept under. He in turn had to be rescued himself at considerable risk to others and ended up with an expensive hospital stay. A few of them could have lost their lives in the process. After tens of thousands of dollars spent and considerable risk to husbands and fathers, they eventually saved Bambi for at most a few more days of life by the looks of it (hey, the over populated coyotes need to eat too). This followed by a report that if the County doesn't raise property taxes on its citizens struggling to keep their homes it faces bankruptcy! We're in trouble... real, big, trouble. Thus endeth the rant! Thanks, Spence. I feel better now... I really do! :) | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Gutcutter | February 22nd, 2014, 8:43 am | |
 Posts: 470 | There is an interesting section in the article that claims that catch-and-release was started on our Au Sable in the early 50's...I was always under the impression that it didn't happen until the late 80's sometime...My impression was that the Angler's of the Au Sable came in to existence because the national TU and others didn't support catch-and-release. Spence aka Mr Lore Last Spring, we took you to public access stretches of Spring Creek, and on that stream, you saw (but unfortunately did not fish) the Heritage Section known as Fisherman's Paradise. This "No Wading" section is considered the first FFO project in the U.S. (single fly, barbless hook) commencing in 1934. It also had a "ladies only" section, which to this day we old timers call the "ladies creek", as it flows directly out of the adjacent hatchery. There was a two trout limit of the stocked fish until 1961 when it became a "catch and release" project. Stocking was discontinued in 1981. Fisherman's Paradise remains FFO/CnR, but recently the single fly/barbless restriction has been lifted as has the wading ban (except in one small area). Mandatory catch-and-release should not be a management tool used in Alaska's sport fisheries. ”Board of Fisheries" can do much, much better simply by limiting access and harvest and by restricting methods and means. What kind of future will we leave our children and grandchildren? Fishing that kills Alaska's fish for the fun of it? Fisheries prostituted to the highest bidders? Or will we leave those following us the tradition of non-wasteful harvest of Alaska's fish that has helped define Alaskans and sustain the Alaskan spirit for generations past? Alaska's fish are far too valuable to be caught more than once. There is a much greater trout biomass now that it is mandatory catch and release than when it was a selective harvest stream. Nice try, Reed... Cabela's Fly Fishing 2002 catalog advertises, on page 154, a lodge on Alaska's Tsiu River where anglers...can expect to hook-up with 25-50 each day. The Tsiu River (accessable only by air or boat) drains a small part of the Bering Swamp and runs only about two and a half miles into the Gulf of Alaska. It receives a 200,000+ run of Silvers. And, it is the only place where I have caught Silvers on a dry fly, although I'm not sure if there was any U.V. involved in the process. Those that can, do. Those that can't do research. And thus have the time to whine about the evil progress of man. | |
| All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness | ||
| Jmd123 | February 22nd, 2014, 12:12 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | "Initially inflicted on the angling community by fishery managers on Michigan’s AuSable River in the early 1950s, mandatory catch-and-release, or, as it was originally named, “fishing for fun,” was instituted to abolish the need for expensive stocking programs on high quality trout streams." Okay then...in other words, catch-and-release ("fishing for fun") was instituted because the stream COULD NOT WITHSTAND THE FISHING PRESSURE and had to be maintained by "expensive stocking programs". So...it's MUCH BETTER to have, essentially, factory-produced fish for the masses than to have naturally-reproducing trout in a naturally healthy trout stream, which apparently can't withstand the onslaught of the masses who want to kill everything they can... I haven't read the whole article yet but when I got to this I had to comment! Sorry for the caps, couldn't help the emphasis... Jonathon P.S. I guess according to these people I need to go out and get every possible hunting license and kill absolutely EVERY possible animal that I can eat because, well, it's our "heritage". Sorry, I don't eat any where near enough meat, I'm more like Spence though not nearly as strict...though I DO like yellow perch! Not that I disparage hunting AT ALL - if I ate more meat I would most certainly do it myself. But my point is, just because you CAN doesn't mean you have to DO. | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Jmd123 | February 22nd, 2014, 12:17 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | P.P.S. Spence, what's with you Netherlanders and ice??? Was there a major freeze about 20-25 years ago and every pond was frozen and those danged Dutch kids all became expert skaters or something?? Also, caught the Women's Biathlon yesterday and Ukraine won the Gold! BTW, did I ever mention that I'm 1/2 Ukrainian? Also feeling very sad for the people in the home country...I hope they can stop that horror. Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Jmd123 | February 22nd, 2014, 12:27 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | P.P.P.S. Okay, one more thing. Don't we have plenty of studies out there showing that fish caught and released by fly fisherman generally have a lower rate of mortality than those caught and released by other methods? I distinctly remember a photograph of a fly-caught fish versus a worm-caught fish, and in the latter case the hook was much larger and longer, penetrated deeper, and came much closer to piercing the trout's HEART than the hook in the fly. I think most of us on here can attest to the fact that a fly-caught fish generally ends up with a hook in the jaws, and typically a very small one at that (I know Tony uses infamously small flies, how much damage can a #22 be causing??). Worm-caught fish often if not usually swallow it - what if it's a 6-incher? Think that fish is gonna survive? I can guarantee you that a #16 EHC stuck in it's mouth is going to give that fish a much better chance to live and grow than a worm on a #10 in it's gullet. Spinners? Treble hooks???? Gimme a break... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| TNEAL | February 22nd, 2014, 3:44 pm | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | I was at the meeting in the basement of Shoppenagon's Hotelin Grayling, Mi back in the 80's that precipitated the instituting of catch and release on Michigan's AuSable. Statistics were presented that showed little to no effect on the fish regarding the special restrictions that had gone into place starting in the 50's, none of which were catch and release. They had to do mainly with size limits including a slotted limit with all fish between 12 and 16 inches mandatorily release. The DNR rep stated that since all restriction imposed by the state had had very little effect, they were now opening it to the public for ideas. Within a day or two, the petitions for catch and release were being circulated; within a relatively short time it was passed into law. | |
| PaulRoberts | February 24th, 2014, 8:13 am | |
 Posts: 1776 | I thought it was an interesting and well thought out article. I understand the arguments but don't entirely agree that C&R has no place or cannot be executed well. I do wonder (have always wondered) where traditional ends and the evil begins: "Alaska must draw the line somewhere, and Alaska must draw a line that defines and occupies the ethical high ground of traditional angling, that supports and maintains the biological integrity of our fisheries, and that respects and nurtures Alaskan culture and social diversity." The author also quotes a Native Alaskan on the topic but doesn't consider how hook-n-line angling has largely replaced native netting and spearing. Has the replacement of native subsistence cultures been part of that moral high ground? Although I see the issues with tourism I'm not convinced that "limiting access" is going to fly on Alaskan waters in which the stocks have become so depleted and "salmon as food" almost entirely reliant on hatcheries. C&R is certainly not to blame, nor played any role whatsoever, for that. | |
| Jmd123 | February 24th, 2014, 9:42 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Having read most of the article, though not word-for-word, I have a real problem with us C&R folks being called "fish torturers". OK, how many people that practice catch-and-kill EAT BEEF or CHICKEN? How many exposes have there been on the meat industries in this country and the massive amounts of animal abuse, tantamount to torture, that makes place in them? But OK, I get it, those animals are RAISED AS FOOD so it's OK if we torture them, because we are just going to kill and eat them anyway, right? Oh, but wait, what about put-and-take hatchery fish, aren't those ALSO animals that we produce to eat? So we can go ahead and torture them, right? Oh, but those poor, poor wild fishies...how dare you "torture" them! So if you're gonna kill it torture is OK, am I correct here? OK, catch-and-kill folks, how about all of those undersized fish that you catch and then RELEASE because they're not legal to keep? Didn't you also torture all of them? Please explain to me why that doesn't make YOU just as bad as ME. I personally think this is a load of horseshit, written by a bunch of folks that likely do NOT treat every animal they encounter in their lives with tender loving kindness, ESPECIALLY NOT those that they kill and eat! "Alaska's fish are far too valuable to be caught more than once." HUH??? Enough of a rant for now... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Oldredbarn | February 24th, 2014, 10:33 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | Having read most of the article, though not word-for-word, Before you comment there are two rules. 1) You must have read the whole article...It is a bit long. 2) You are breaking the rules there Jonathon. When I debated in high school, my personal rule was, I should be able to argue the other side better than the opposing team could. I knew their point-of-view better than they did...This started by reading their "stuff"...If I were in your college course and I cherry-picked you would call me out and give me a C, for my grade. Can't lift things out of context. :) Thesis. Anti-Thesis. Synthesis and it all starts over again...For it to really work you need to know the thesis. Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Jmd123 | February 24th, 2014, 10:48 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Yes Spence, I must admit I haven't read it word-for-word yet. Finding it difficult to do that when a supposedly scientific article is bringing up accusations of "fish torture" as a criticism of C&R, when in the process of feeding our society protein animals are regularly mistreated and always killed to feed us - yet here come a bunch of folks who all of a sudden care about the feelings of FISH!!! Really, do you care about how that chicken in your McNuggets lived it's life in a box and pooped all over itself and had to be constantly fed antiobiotics so it didn't get sick because it was surrounded by thousands of other chickens in the same horrible circumstances? But gosh, trout have feelings!! And chickens (pigs, cows, etc.) don't - despite the fact that they are several more steps up on the evolutionary ladder...??? Gimme a break. Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | February 24th, 2014, 11:09 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Jon - So you posit as given that common animal husbandry practices are equivalent to torture but sport fishing isn't because of the level of evolutionary development? PETA people don't like McNuggets, either. Ceding that much ground simply to point out the hypocrisy of those sitting on the sidelines isn't helpful or relevant. If I were a consumer of McNuggets that leaned towards agreeing with PETA, you might make me feel guilty, but that doesn't convince me to support your desire to "torture" fish. ;) Anyway, I did read the whole non sequitur of an article and find it dangerous. The inflammatory language is also way over the top. One mild example - Catch & Release is "inflicted" on fisheries? Really? The article is rife with such distorting vitreol, and it's sad to see it used by a supposed supporter of sport fishing. Assuming he's not a plant, the author is setting his own trap. I can see the PETA presser now, "Even large segments of the sporting community admit that catching fish is tantamount to torture only justified if needed for sustinence. We repeat our demand for the abolition of the barbarous practice of sport fishing and advocate an aggressive food stamp program for those dependent on this heinous activity for food." That's all we need...:( | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Crepuscular | February 25th, 2014, 2:13 pm | |
 Posts: 923 | who started this thread anyway? ;) | |
| Entoman | February 25th, 2014, 9:08 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Spence... Need more be said? :) | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Crepuscular | February 25th, 2014, 9:19 pm | |
Posts: 923 | They must need some sunshine in the motor city. | |
| Jmd123 | February 25th, 2014, 9:24 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Eric, you ain't kidding!!! Our rivers are frozen over here, probably like yours... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Crepuscular | February 25th, 2014, 10:22 pm | |
Posts: 923 | Eric, you ain't kidding!!! Our rivers are frozen over here, probably like yours... Mine are 51 degrees today just like they are in July. | |
| Oldredbarn | February 25th, 2014, 11:28 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | Spence aka Mr Lore Tony...I remember you guys pointing that out to me...I have read of it before somewhere...Probably Marinaro or Fox...A very historic spot! I knew I was wading hallowed water and you know I'll never forget my guided tour by the PA Boys. I wasn't sure if that bit of info about the Au Sable was true. I had never heard that before and Tim confirmed that for me. The flies only sectioning may have happened earlier but the no-kill wasn't until the 80's. They must need some sunshine in the motor city. My friend we could us a great many things here in the Motor City...Sunshine and a little warmth would be a nice start. :) Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| TNEAL | February 26th, 2014, 12:45 pm | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | Correct re Michigan's AuSable.. flies only was a part of the early restrictions; bag and size limits varied over the years (starting in 50's) until CR was instituted in the 80's.I'm not sure we're going to see even a little warmth in the near future. This Thursday's wind chills are supposed to be -25 during the day and colder at night with all of March predicted to be below "normal" temps.... | |
| Oldredbarn | February 26th, 2014, 1:20 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | Well...Maybe Tim, it will be a little like the 90's this year...Cooler...A few years there it was getting too warm already in May...Water temps dangerously high. I remember the year O.J. was making his infamous Bronco ride...It was cool that year...Fishing was great. Thanks for the clarification on the regs...Since I haven't killed a trout since 1968 I have tended to ignore them...They really don't apply to me. :) I'll see JR next weekend at the Fly Fishing show in Warren. I'm walking around Rick Kustich...Looking forward to talking Mid-West steely fishing with him. Will have to PM you and get you some fishing dates...See if I can't temp you back to the old stomping grounds sometime this season. :) You need to critique my Bobby D's! :) Take Care! Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
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