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PaulRoberts | February 26th, 2014, 11:06 pm | |
Colorado Posts: 1776 | There is a much greater trout biomass now that it is mandatory catch and release than when it was a selective harvest stream. Just for the record, Reed did not write this article. It was written by a John Nelson of Soldotna, AK. He’s, apparently, a woodcarver. Nelson is not likely an AR plant either. He’s just …angry. He’s invoking an age old argument in fisheries management. It’s essentially over the rights of ownership of natural resources, often split along cultural or class lines. My guess is his main beef is the right of Alaskan residents over tourist anglers that get catered to, probably out of proportion, or at least in proportion to the money each can bring in. High quality fisheries are expensive to maintain. In much of the world, they aren't really maintained much at all. Don't know what to tell him, except that barring some apocalypse, he's not likely to have Alaska all to himself. Of course there's an awful lot of it. Since he said "heavily fished" waters, I suppose he wants his Alaska close to home too. | |
Overmywader | February 27th, 2014, 12:53 am | |
Posts: 31 | No, I didn't write that article. John Nelson is a fisherman who is enthusiastic about his sport and protective of the waters. As someone mentioned, legislated catch and release fishing is an inroad for PETA. PETA and like-minded groups used catch and release angling as an argument to get some European countries to enact laws which insist upon catch and keep -- every fish caught must be kept. The reasoning was that any injury to an animal should be justified by need, otherwise the injury was torture. Sustenance is need. IIRC, the first water set aside in the US for fly-fishing-only was below the dam on Grand Lake Stream, Maine. That was prior to 1903. | |
Regards, Reed Overmywaders | ||
PaulRoberts | February 27th, 2014, 4:31 am | |
Colorado Posts: 1776 | Sustenance as need. Hmmmmm... Well that cetainly simplifies things, but is less than satisfactory. At what level of "need" might the cutoff potentially be? Are modern rod-n-reel anglers in need of these fish? Might a net do the job with less "trauma" to the fish? Could it not be done under the supervision of a licensed veterinarian? | |
Entoman | February 28th, 2014, 12:27 am | |
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604 | I wished the author made the argument based on the health of the fishery and maximizing angler rights with that in mind. If he can make a cogent argument that the former can be enhanced or maintained with substantial harvest, I'd fully support him in his desire for the largest harvest possible. Where he loses me is when he invokes a moral argument based on the supposition of fish torture as a rationale. Followed to its logical conclusion.... well, it's just a very slippery slope.:( | |
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
PaulRoberts | February 28th, 2014, 2:51 am | |
Colorado Posts: 1776 | I think being mindful of potential suffering is an appropriate consideration, which might need to be given a looser definition where fish are concerned. But I'm not convinced catching fish on appropriate tackle, and handled well upon capture, actually amounts to "suffering" much less "torture". Not that I haven't seen situations and acts in which fish underwent something akin to torture in capture however -more often with large hardware and bait gear however than with FF gear. Stress might be the more apt term, although research I've seen suggests that angling caught fish are not greatly hindered by the experience except in certain circumstances -ones that most C&R FFers recognize pretty readily. | |
TNEAL | February 28th, 2014, 8:02 am | |
GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | Sustenance as need. how about under supervision of a licensed vegetarian? | |
Jmd123 | February 28th, 2014, 10:41 pm | |
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611 | Hey, isn't Spence a licensed vegetarian? He could have a whole new line of work cut out for him! Maybe I should get a license? Nah, would have to give up yellow perch then... Sorry Spence, I just violated the second of your rules, if only for some comic relief on another bitterly cold winter's night in northern Michigan... I guess my basic hang-up with this article is the whole "fish torture" thing. Fish face difficult survival odds all their lives, and those that get big enough for us to brag about and share photos on here have faced more than most, otherwise they wouldn't be that big! Someone would have eaten them by now...So a fisherman comes along and puts said fish in a struggle for it's survival - something the fish has been dealing with all it's life, with predators far more efficient than humans - for a brief period of time, then releases said fish, with hopefully a short fight, gentle and wet handling, and plenty of revival time before ultimate release...is this not what fish are bred for, survival? And, are we not all maddened by fish who won't fall for our flies because they are "too smart"? Like this sport is too easy or something? Seriously, a fish caught and released by a fly fisherman using a relatively small hook - most of mine are #10-16, I know you all often use smaller ones - taking the care described above is no more "fish torture" than getting away from the otter that bit a piece out of your tail! OK, latest rant completed...I do feel better now. Jonathon | |
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
Martinlf | March 1st, 2014, 9:27 pm | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Not to mention that being caught and released might make some fish less likely to be caught later by someone who would kill and eat them. And I'd think a slow death on a stringer would be a pretty bad fate, even for an animal with a brain the size of a pea. So, could the argument be made that the catch and release angler may potentially provide an education that would increase a fish's chances to avoid trauma and enhance its chances to survive? | |
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
TNEAL | March 1st, 2014, 10:01 pm | |
GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | Flies have retrieved from the jaws of large browns in less than 24 hours by placing a very similar fly in those same jaws; perhaps just a slow learner? | |
Martinlf | March 2nd, 2014, 12:13 am | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | "might make some fish" :) | |
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
Oldredbarn | March 2nd, 2014, 3:16 pm | |
Novi, MI Posts: 2608 | Not to mention that being caught and released might make some fish less likely to be caught later by someone who would kill and eat them. And I'd think a slow death on a stringer would be a pretty bad fate, even for an animal with a brain the size of a pea. So, could the argument be made that the catch and release angler may potentially provide an education that would increase a fish's chances to avoid trauma and enhance its chances to survive? Louis. I've been using this rationale for decades. :) I'm just educating fish to keep them out of the frying pan. "Don't be so stupid next time! How many times to I have to tell you not to fall for the fakes?! Next time your ass is fried in butter, dumkopf!" The German is for those Euro imports. :) I'm afraid though that Tim's probably correct. How many times have we, the so-called, "great ape", made the same mistake over and over again, and asked ourselves, "when the hell am I going to stop this"? I guess the pea-brained trout can be forgiven. Besides. Tim does tie up some pretty sweet flies, and I've fallen for them over and over again in the fly shops up in Grayling since 1991. Who's the pea-brain here? Hmmmm. :) Spence | |
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
PaulRoberts | March 2nd, 2014, 6:28 pm | |
Colorado Posts: 1776 | Here is a reasonably considered piece on the subject, from a fish's side of the issue: http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/Fishwelfare/Rose.pdf Fish go through physiologic stress when being captured by hook-n-line. But by looking at vertebrate brains anatomically and what's been deciphered functionally, fish do not have the emotional overlay mammals do. Going further, mammals don't have the emotional overlay that apes do. Further, apes don't have the emotional overlay humans do although the foundations are there. The differences across categories are enormous. There is a sense of scale here that is often under-appreciated. Applying cursory consideration, people cannot help but project their own feelings (emotional overlay) on other critters. It's called empathy and within human societies empathy is a good thing to have. Many (most) people have lost connections with the ecological world from loss of experience. Much of that experience we'd probably all just as soon give up. No one wants to go back 12,000 years, and stay there. I think modern fishing and hunting and gardening (dabbling in our hunter-gatherer past) is a step in the right direction, although it gets exceedingly costly as human populations (and participation) rises. One more point: We also have to live with our neighbors. Not caring is not an option. | |
Entoman | March 2nd, 2014, 8:12 pm | |
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604 | Interesting, Paul. Besides emotional responses, there's also pain reception as an issue. My understanding is that they don't have a brain that can register pain. Common sense points this out as well. I sure couldn't pull with all my might against a hook sticking me through the jaw.:) | |
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
Jmd123 | March 2nd, 2014, 10:36 pm | |
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611 | How many of you have ever found big spiny bugs, large water beetles, even wasps in trout? How about crayfish? Some of the things these fish choke down would definitely cause some pain if fish could feel it, at least that's my observation. Hellgrammites? I doubt any one of us would care to crunch down on one of those things... Jonathon P.S. I saved the article for more detailed reading. Looks VERY interesting! | |
No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
PaulRoberts | March 3rd, 2014, 12:41 am | |
Colorado Posts: 1776 | Interesting, Paul. Besides emotional responses, there's also pain reception as an issue. My understanding is that they don't have a brain that can register pain. Common sense points this out as well. I sure couldn't pull with all my might against a hook sticking me through the jaw.:) Yes, pain reception is part of the missing package according to the author. He equates pain to consciousness (along with emotion) however, there are studies that show responses to potentially painful stimuli in fish that infer extended discomfort. Apparently there are serious issues with the methods and interpretations. And how such "pain" is experienced is up in the air, esp since fish don't have the neocortex mammals do. Here appears to be the latest: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130808123719.htm How many of you have ever found big spiny bugs, large water beetles, even wasps in trout? How about crayfish? Some of the things these fish choke down would definitely cause some pain if fish could feel it, at least that's my observation. Hellgrammites? I doubt any one of us would care to crunch down on one of those things... I watched as a large creek chub in an aquarium tried to tackle a full grown fishfly larva. That fishfly clamped down ion the chubs tongue and that was one mighty surprised/alarmed (but not necessarily in pain) chub. It shook its head and spat the fishfly out. Browns eat fishfly larvae though, and they have teeth on their tongues -mostly there to keep slippery fish going in the right direction. Ever seen the teeth on brookie tongues! Holy moly! In relative size they are ... frightening. | |
Martinlf | March 3rd, 2014, 12:42 am | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Are trout under pressure not somewhat generally harder to catch than those that have never seen a fly? That is, if we do not spook them first? Doesn't some learning take place in some fish? | |
"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
PaulRoberts | March 3rd, 2014, 1:09 am | |
Colorado Posts: 1776 | Are trout under pressure not somewhat generally harder to catch than those that have never seen a fly? That is, if we do not spook them first? Doesn't some learning take place in some fish? That's a topic that will start some serious arguments on the bass fishing sites, that eventually divides across brain hemisphere affiliation and religiosity (related apparently). It certainly appears to me that fish can "learn" to avoid angling. | |
Taxon | March 3rd, 2014, 4:24 am | |
Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | Louis-Are trout under pressure not somewhat generally harder to catch than those that have never seen a fly? That is, if we do not spook them first? Doesn't some learning take place in some fish? That was certainly a skillfully presented offering. Just for the sake of stirring the pot, please allow me to present an alternate theory. Not unlike flyfishers, some trout are more cautious than others. So in pressured waters, those with a lower CQ don't last long :-) | |
Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
Taxon | March 3rd, 2014, 11:09 am | |
Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | Who gives a damn if a trout happens to die! Actually, I do. When lake fishing, on rare occasion I have had to cradle a large trout in both hands for five minutes or more, before it regained the balance and energy necessary to swim away on its own. But that's just me, and I certainly have no criticism of someone with a different view, as long it isn't a catch and release fishery. | |
Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
Oldredbarn | March 3rd, 2014, 11:57 am | |
Novi, MI Posts: 2608 | Bruce's non-sequitur aside, here's part two...Spear fishermen go angling for equal rights Well...The feathers are about to fly in good old Michigan! | |
"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
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