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> > Learning to Tie Dries, Page 2
| Wbranch | January 25th, 2014, 12:11 am | |
 Posts: 2733 | Hi Kyle, Seriously tying good dry flies is not a black art you just need to know the skills needed to properly handle the materials and how to apply them to the hook in a proportioned manner. If you decide you want to tie hackled dry flies I would recommend you save some money and buy high quality (Whiting, Metz, Collins) dry fly hackle. IMO you just can't go wrong in only buying high end saddles. Forget neck capes they just don't have the numbers of hackles in sizes #12 - #20 to make the purchase price worthwhile. There are mixed sizes from very small to humougously big but just not many of them. A good saddle on the other hand has individual feathers that are at least 4" long and may be as long as 8" and not only is the stem very fine and consistent in diameter but the individual hackle barbules from the tip to the butt are pretty much the same size. I can usually tie 4 - 6 #14 flies from a single feather and as many as 6 - 8 flies from the smaller #16 - #20 size feathers. A couple of #1 grade saddles will last you years. You know from our exchanged emails that I fish dries most of the time and I tie hundreds of flies every year. Yet I've still got the same saddles that I bought fifteen years ago. The colors I think everyone should have are grizzly, med & dark dun, cream, ginger, and brown. I guess in todays money that is going to cost you about $500 maybe a little less. Or you can buy half saddles as I have ddone many times and spend $250.00 It is very important to know what you are looking for in high end necks and it has been written about a great deal. I never had anyone help me buy necks, I just learned from buying and tying with crappy necks and then buying really good necks and seeing the difference in the finished fly. I look for small diameter stems that are pretty consistent in size from the tip to the butt. I also like to see stems that are supple and when you bend them into a hoop they don't break. It is pretty much impossible not to see some webbiness down where you pluck the feather off of the skin (actually it is better to cut it with your scissors at the butt so you don't tear the cured skin) but once you go up the same about 1/2" the barbules should be nice and stiff and not webby. I don't know how other guys judge for barbule stiffness but I still bend the feather between my thumb and index finger and place the fibers against my lips. Stiff fibers will actually feel sharp and unbending. I like those, fibers that I can feel deflecting against my lip with just a little pressure go back on the rack. If you are tying conventional fully hackled flies I might palmer 4 - 5 turns of hackle. I don't tie any "Catskill style" flies and 95% of my hackled dries are Marinaro Thorax style where I set the wings back more from the normal eye position of a fully hackled fly and I clip the hackle fibers on the bottom to a "V" shape so the fly sets up better and closer to the surface. On those flies, in sizes #14 - #16 I will use three to maybe 3 1/2 turns of hackle. On flies #18 - #20 two - three turns is plenty. I also use a lot of Compara-duns. Compara-duns are less costly to tie as you need no hackle and if tied correctly meaning they have a nice 160 - 180 degree wing that is perpendicular to the shank with nicely splayed tails and tapered fur or synthetic body you will have a fly with a very good appearance on the water that catches good numbers of trout. Don't expect contest winners coming out of your bench right away. Just keep concentrating on getting quality materials and proper proportions of your materials relative to the size of your hook and and don't crowd the eye. Remember if the fly looks really propotioned to you a trout is probably going to weat it! | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Oldredbarn | January 25th, 2014, 10:44 pm | |
 Posts: 2608 | Folks...I'll chime in here later, but tonight I'm in Milesburg PA, burnt out from the show in Sometset, post dinner at Jim's Italian restaurant in Bellefonte, post wine and beer...I'm falling a sleep as I write this. :) Had a white out on the way back to the motel from Bellefonte. Could not see where the road was. I got to meet up and chat with Casey at the show. I'll post a pic later. Good night sweet prince. The Manicotti was wonderful. | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Roguerat | January 27th, 2014, 8:51 am | |
 | 'Marinaro Thorax style' etc. I've had my greatest success with Thorax-style patterns, and they've become my go-to 'confidence' dry. I recently tried William Tapply's Clumped-hackle Comparadun pattern, along with his Nearly Perfect Dun. Efficacy on-stream remains to be determined, since it's a balmy 4 degrees today with wind-chills in the minus-teens...and March seems a long way off. Roguerat I Peter 5:7 'Cast your cares upon Him...' | |
| Kschaefer3 | January 27th, 2014, 10:28 am | |
 Posts: 376 | Matt - Thanks for all the info. I will need to get some good hackle soon. I know there have been threads on this topic, but will you purchase feathers online? Or is it better to see and feel them first? Roguerat - I'm in the same boat. I believe it was -15 degrees when I left for work this morning and the winds were howling. Even if March does get here, I'm not so sure it will be fishable. Thanks to everyone for the advice. I have some all white cdc comparaduns I tied up this weekend. When I get a chance I will post the pictures. A couple more questions for everyone. When tailing a fly, do you prefer to use micro fibbets or something similar and imitate the specific number of tails? Or do you clump hair or something similar and tie a bulkier tail? Thinking about what I want to tie is a bit daunting. I think of the bugs I saw last year, and which ones were first. Hennies, some evening sulphurs and bwos are the early bugs I remember. To be prepared for hennies, should I have emergers, low riding duns, high riding duns and spinners? Is it different for different bugs? As I said, I did well on comparadun bwos last year, which is the reason why I started on comparaduns. I like that comparaduns sit nice and low in the water. Are there other bugs where it is better to tie higher floating, fully hackled flies? I'll quit here before I ask 300 questions in one post. There will be more to come, I'm sure. My brain space has been dominated by tying dries for a few days now. | |
| Wbranch | January 27th, 2014, 1:53 pm | |
Posts: 2733 | Hi Kyle, "but will you purchase feathers online? Or is it better to see and feel them first? I would never, ever, consider buying dry fly hackle on-line. I must see it and examine it first Thanks to everyone for the advice. I have some all white cdc comparaduns I tied up this weekend. When I get a chance I will post the pictures. Looking forward to seeing them A couple more questions for everyone. When tailing a fly, do you prefer to use micro fibbets or something similar and imitate the specific number of tails? Or do you clump hair or something similar and tie a bulkier tail? That is really a bunch of questions; for delicate dries I still like to split the tails as they do help a fly set-up correctly. However I don't believe that split tails will mean more caught fish. I employ them for the reason above and they look pretty too. You can do just as well by stacking 4 - 6 stiff hackle fibers and tying them in as a tail and running the thread under then twice to splay them. Then they kind of help to set the fly up correctly and still look nice. I've never felt those splayed tails caught less big trout than split tails. If I was tying a big Humpy or Stimulator then I'd be using a big clump of stacked hair or stiff hackle fibers. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Kschaefer3 | January 27th, 2014, 5:27 pm | |
Posts: 376 | Thanks, Matt! I'm going to the shop tonight for a color or two or three of hackle. I will see if they have half saddles, so thanks for that suggestion. I don't mind splitting the tails (not as hard as I thought it would be), but more material should help them float better. Especially on bigger flies. I just want to have a variety of styles in a variety of colors so I have some of the basics covered for the start of the season (different insects, different type of water, different stage in the hatch). | |
| Entoman | January 27th, 2014, 11:25 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | You've received excellent advice, Kyle. The only thing I can add that may be helpful in this stage of your career is to be wary of most genetic saddle for standard ties. The secret to their great stiffness is the ovoid cross section of the barbules. They are basically tiny turbo fan blades. Tied conventionally they tend to twist the hell out of fine tippets (this isn't a problem with parachutes and thorax ties). Even some of the necks can have this problem. In necks, the best buys are are often in the B & C grades. Once bought a bunch of necks from a supplier that had downgraded them substantially for their lack of small hackles. What wasn't appreciated was that they had about the largest concentration of 14's I've seen on necks before or since! As Matt says, always look at necks before purchase. I can only add take into consideration the intended use and be prepared to know what to look for. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Wbranch | January 28th, 2014, 9:27 am | |
Posts: 2733 | Kurt makes a great point; "Tied conventionally they tend to twist the hell out of fine tippets (this isn't a problem with parachutes and thorax ties)" The barbules on the saddles are so stiff that when I don't "V" cut (or just flat cut) the bottom hackle a #16 fully hackled dry will pretty much ruin a newly tied on 6X tippet. I've even had problems sometimes with 5X. When I use traditional fully hackled (it's very rare) Catskill ties I never go below 4X and at times use 3X. We are taking about big Ep subvaria, invaria, guttulata, simulans, etc where the fly might be almost as big as a hummingbird. I tie some of my Green Drakes on #6 up eye black salmon dry fly hooks. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Kschaefer3 | February 7th, 2014, 2:09 pm | |
Posts: 376 | Can I tie an "Elk" hair caddis with comparadun hair? It seems like you don't want to flair the hair, similar to a comparadun, so it would make sense to me. | |
| Entoman | February 7th, 2014, 8:25 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | I'm not sure what that means any more, Kyle. Different suppliers put that name on all kinds of stuff. The original Comparadun used hair from a deer's mask which is totally unsuitable. You want a little flair so that the wing nicely compresses at the collar. I like light patches of yearling elk for most applications though Whitetail gretzen works well for darker versions. These hairs are tougher than most which is important as the wings take a lot of abuse. Stay away from bleached (too brittle). A lot of broken tips in the patch is a deal breaker too. Don't forget to look for those. Pay attention to the length and color of the tip bands as they will affect the overall look. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Martinlf | February 7th, 2014, 9:50 pm | |
 Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Whitetail gretzen--had to look that one up. Leave it to Kurt. I don't tie many elk or deer hair caddis, so fellas remind me. Do you use a tighter wrap or two to bind the wing on, then some softer wraps aft of the first ones to control the flare? If this is so, it might help Kyle. Also, can't one vary the amount of hair a bit, less for slower water, more for riffles or pocket water? | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Jmd123 | February 7th, 2014, 10:23 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | I've used Coastal Deer (whatever exactly that means) for EHC's and I have always found it to make very nice wings. One of my favorite all-time flies, Kyle you can't go wrong with this one. Makes a great imitation and an excellent searching pattern, and you can even tie attractors with it. Best of luck! Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | February 8th, 2014, 1:19 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Louis - As with most commonly tied flies there's many methods guys use. The technique you mentioned is probably the best way for Comparaduns. On elkhairs it tends to lift the wing and flair it too much. I've yet to see a method superior to the one devised by its originator. I remember a kid that whatched Mr. Troth tie them by the gross (and then I'd go home and practice). His method was to pinch the hair in place and wrap the collar with a soft wrap at first and increase pressure with each successive wrap. Too much pressure on the first wrap or two results in too much spin and cut hairs. You want that wing on top and moderately flaired. The most common mistakes are: 1. Wrong hair selection (texture, color, quality). 2. Big dubbing shoulder and application of the wing to the bare shank in front of it. - This is the leading cause of high mounted overly flaired wings. The wings are also prone to spinning on the shank. It's best to tie a tapering cigar almost to the eye and mount the wing on top where the hackle is tied in. 3. Wings too thick. - You should be able to see a little air when looking through from below. 4. Wings too long. Tied properly the hair tips should reach just to the bend or slightly beyond. 5. Hackle too large. - use one size smaller or trim to that length underneath. I prefer the former, but the latter is acceptable. 6. Too small a collar. - It needs to be noticeable for best holding. If its hidden in the hair, it won't hold. Jonathon - Ha! you got that right. Coastal deer was originally defined as hair from West Coast blacktails. My sense is that name is now applied to any short fine deer hair of late, regardless of the source. The really good stuff has very short black tips that give a good speckled look even on small flies. It's easy to work with and makes a good looking fly. Like most deer hair it's not all that tough though. Also, it's a little fine for the most common sizes used. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | February 9th, 2014, 11:46 am | |
Posts: 2611 | Kurt, I had a patch for many years that I think I've just about used up. Each hair was half grey and half tan-brown, with those black tips like you say, and it made fabulous wings. Tied with tan or light brown dubbing and medium-brown hackle, made some of my deadliest flies. I figured that the original Coastal Deer was from the West Coast blacktails, thanks for confirming my suspicions, but as you say it could be from anywhere these days... In any case, the EHC is a great fly and you can't go wrong with it. I tie mine a little differently than most people, tying in a small 3-4" piece of very fine wire (gold or silver, depending on the other colors of the fly) at the bend of the hook, then dub, then tie in the hackle at the front, wrap it back towards the bend, then capture and counter-wrap the wire over the hackle forward. One can do this with a tag end of thread too, but I think the wire adds just a tiny bit of flash that might just help encourage the fishies... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| TNEAL | February 9th, 2014, 3:10 pm | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | I believe Jonathon just described the original method of palmering | |
| Entoman | February 9th, 2014, 3:50 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Yep, that's the way Troth tied 'em. BTW - another mistake I've seen a lot of guys make is failure to make a complete wrap of hackle under the collar. Whether you start from the back or from the front, if you just palmer you end up with the front hackle barbules underneath canted and well back from the collar. Because you have to leave room for the collar up front, I've seen widely palmered EH's that have no hackle underneath on the front third of the fly and the rest is so heavily canted that they look like they're trying to make a left turn. No good... Tied the Troth way, I've found it best to put a little coat of cement on about an 1/8" or so of the wire. Always tie down the hackle with at least two wraps before spiraling forward. This helps to prevent the tip from slipping out during use. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Kschaefer3 | February 10th, 2014, 11:37 am | |
Posts: 376 | Thanks for the tips! I was asking because it is nice to have some caddis imitations for the rare days I find a good hatch of them. I am more concerned with the early season, "little black caddis", as I've heard they hatch in larger numbers. I have some comparadun hair, finer and not hollow deer hair, and just wanted to know if that would double. Sorry I have yet to post pictures. My pattern has been, tie a fly, cut materials off hook, retry. Sometimes after 6-8 I am pleased enough to keep it, most the time not. | |
| Entoman | February 10th, 2014, 6:03 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Razoring flies is a good way to get better, Kyle. If the dark tips are long enough, it should work fine. The hair needs some compressibility and be long enough to stack, though. If your hair doesn't work out, the good news is another patch of deer hair is pretty cheap. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | February 10th, 2014, 9:32 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | HA! Knew I couldn't be the only one doing it that way, but I didn't know that was the original method. Thanks once again for the education, fellas. BTW, that's how I do my Woolly Buggers too. Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Kschaefer3 | February 11th, 2014, 1:27 pm | |
Posts: 376 | Jonathon - I used that method once tying a spey fly my buddy taught me. It is a great way to lock down the hackle and give a tiny bit of flash. Thanks for the info, Kurt. I will have to give it a go and see how it works. I'm starting to figure out my thread pressure with comparaduns. At least I'm not breaking thread much, and am starting to be able to keep the hair from spinning. Now I need to get the wing positioned correctly on the shank, and dub the thorax without the dubbing getting all frayed. Then I just might have fishable flies. Tying dries makes me think of a documentary called "Jiro Dreams of Sushi". The movie discusses the incredible complexity that comes from something as simple as rice and raw fish. | |
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