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> > A Peek in the Boxes: Part Two, Page 2
Oldredbarn has attached these 2 pictures. The message is below.
| Jmd123 | May 12th, 2013, 5:54 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | "Sometimes three strips, one on each side and one across the top (opposite the gap)." That's kinda what I was looking for, Paul. Perhaps a combo of that and small black bead-chain for eyes will keep things inverted. In the tying instructions I have for Whitlock's Crayfish it simply recommends wrapping lead/substitute wire around the hook shank as you would while typically weighting an underbody (Woolly bugger, streamer, etc.) and that never got the hook riding up, so I tired some different side-laying lead configurations too. Perhaps I didn't use enough...Have seen some tiers recommend a small brass dumbbell kinda tucked under the tail on some crayfish patterns to keep them stable Those flies of yours look really nice there, Paul, and not too difficult to tie either. Wrap the lead/substitute wire, squirrel or other hair over, bind down with wire, flare for claws, looks lie mono eyes (?), maybe some antennae? Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Oldredbarn | May 12th, 2013, 8:50 pm | |
 Posts: 2608 | Well gentlemen...What started out as a peek at Spencer's armamentarium has morphed in to a rather interesting thread. I must say I wish I had a few of those crayfish of Kurt's and Paul's for this trip...Nice! I have stopped filling the boxes for the smallies and am filling perceived holes in the Grayling boxes...Can there ever be enough? :) I remember tying like a madman in the winter of 94/95 in preparation for a trip out west...My collection was rounded off a bit by a good fishing friend...That summer of 95 I could of won a one-fly tournay on the Madison and never wetted a very large portion of the boxes. Oh well...One never knows. My wife likes to make fun of me during these few weeks before I head up...She gets a kick out of the nervous wreck that thinks he must be missing something in his boxes for a week he has covered since 1991...She has a sadistic side, no doubt. I don't really think I'm worried so much as anxious to get on with it...I'm that pre-teen heading up to the cottage to hunt with his grandfather who can't seem to get to sleep the night before we leave. :) I'm the Beagle so happy to be heading in to the woods that it's tail is wagging so violently his rear paws are leaving the ground. Thanks all for spicing up the thread! Here are some larger critter flies I came up with for browns and smallies (surprisingly similar fishing) Paul I may have mentioned this here before, but...The 1995 trip started out with a three day "Montana Sampler" that was run out of the Madison River Fishing Co in Ennis...It consisted of a day on DePuys, a day around the Three Dollar Bridge on the Madison, and was capped off with a float on the Madison. Eric Swedman was the manager of the place and pilotted the boat I was in with a prof from Sacramento...I caught a 23.5" Brown on that trip that is posted somewhere here... The prof and I were so geeked we split another float with a guide, Eric Shores, from MRFC...During our lunch break he gave us a little discussion where he said the same as you, "The older a Brown trout becomes the more like a Small-Mouth bass he is." This was after a giddy morning of fishing that was hard to beat... He looked at my dry-fly boxes before we set out that day with hardy any sign of interest...He found the Michigan Big Ugly box and nearly fell over..."What are these?!" I told him the Michigan Big Ugly and he proceeded to start pulling the fibers from the schlappen off the top of the hook...I ask what he was up to and he smiles and said, "Michigan Big Ugly, meet Montana." and proceeded to Zap-a-Gap a zonker strip to the back of this already ungodly fly...We had enough for maybe 4 flies and we rocked the Madison that morning! :) I'm not sure but this fly may have pre-dated Barr's "Meat-Whistle"??? | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Kschaefer3 | May 13th, 2013, 9:28 am | |
 Posts: 376 | Nice looking boxes, Spence! Those smallies don't stand a chance. Paul - That sculpin is the most realistic adaptation I have ever seen. Do you prefer to fish more realistic patterns? Or does it depend? It seems that lots of people fish more general or attractor type streamers. | |
| PaulRoberts | May 13th, 2013, 11:03 am | |
 Posts: 1776 | "The older a Brown trout becomes the more like a Small-Mouth bass he is." It's true. There are a lot of similarities. Same was true in 30+ft of water on the "Big Pond", Lake Ontario; the main difference being 5 to 10 degrees of mercury. Paul - That sculpin is the most realistic adaptation I have ever seen. Do you prefer to fish more realistic patterns? Or does it depend? It seems that lots of people fish more general or attractor type streamers. Ah, imitation vs attraction... This ... is a complicated and old question. Where does one begin and the other leave off? And I ... just don't have time to do it justice right now. Would LOVE to. It's SO cool. Plus, I feel like I'm highjacking Spence's thread. Although he DID say that there was "nothing new under the sun." A call to arms! (of sorts). In a nutshell... Realism to us does not often translate to the fish. It's what the lure does in the water that counts, then how it is perceived by the fish, which makes the physical context important. I have a multi-species and multi-tackle perspective, and break presentation down into a hierarchy of controls: depth, speed, visibility/detectability, action, size, specific triggers, and "ambush points" or more accurately "zones of opportunity". The make up of the lure is only a part of the whole scene. Essentially I want the best of all worlds. Which elements listed are most important shift with fish and contexts. In designing or choosing lures and presentations I pick and choose like I'm digging through a tool box for the right combination. My best flies, those with "Ult" status, incorporate these elements. Many lures work in limited contexts. Others are more ubiquitous (like the Wooly Bugger -hence Spence's well armed fly boxes). NONE though are THE answer, simply bc there is never a single question, as much as we'd like there to be. Now my claims of "Ult" status sound all high and mighty or like a flurry of chest thumping. And are. That's what psyches us up for tackling such complexity. Right behind that is ego. Without it, we are (were once) good as dead. Thank goodness for MacDonald's, eh? My Ult whatever can fail, I can take some ribbing, and grab a burger and smolder for a while. | |
| Kschaefer3 | May 13th, 2013, 11:22 am | |
Posts: 376 | Thanks, Paul. I would love to hear the full response. If you ever do want to delve into it, know that you'll have at least on very intent listener (reader, I suppose). I think I get the gist of what you are saying though. NONE though are THE answer, simply bc there is never a single question, as much as we'd like there to be. This seems to be the gist. Every season fishes differently. Ever weather pattern fishes differently. Every river, stretch of river, specific hole fishes differently. Throwing flies is like asking the trout what they want. We just wait for a response and adjust based on what they tell us. | |
| PaulRoberts | May 13th, 2013, 11:31 am | |
Posts: 1776 | Throwing flies is like asking the trout what they want. We just wait for a response and adjust based on what they tell us. This is exactly what experienced anglers of all walks and ilks say, pretty much word for word. I like to dig deeper and deeper. I want to know the "whys". They are exportable. We can't just start at square one every day. We must be able to predict. That's where the power lies. It's enormously satisfying to nail it. | |
| Kschaefer3 | May 13th, 2013, 11:42 am | |
Posts: 376 | I want to know the "whys". I am, and have always been, this way in life. Knowing that something happens, or works, has never been enough. I need to know why it is. Knowing how to use a mathematical equation is one thing. Knowing it derivation, a completely different thing. Many thanks for this insight. I have a new way to look at and think about flies now. I can't wait to hit the vise tonight! | |
| Jmd123 | May 13th, 2013, 12:12 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Paul, very well put, sir. I guess I could sum it up like this: Some days the fish won't hit no matter what due to some circumstances beyond our control (bad days); Some days you can't keep them off your line no matter what you throw at them (DREAM days!); Some days it's not so much the exact fly as the presentation that counts (casting accuracy and working the fly to get the right action are most important); and Some days the fly pattern (& size) matters the most (these are the most satisfying days for the serious hatch-matcher!). I suppose I would add a few more: Sometimes, perhaps most of the time, fish hit our flies because they really look like a food item the fish is familiar with (at least, to the fish's eyes), but sometimes our flies just look, well, "buggy" or have some particular quality that triggers the feeding instinct without necessarily matching an exact food item in the fish's diet. And... Some days a relatively simple pattern will serve as an imitation (due to proper triggering qualities as stated above), whereas on others only a more exact imitation will get the interest of the fish, and on some days excrutiatingly so. Don't know if I've just pointed out the obvious and it doesn't make the picture any clearer, but I think the trick is to know exactly which of these conditions you are dealing with and adjust your flies and fishing accordingly. Just my 2 cents again... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| PaulRoberts | May 13th, 2013, 12:34 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | I can't wait to hit the vise tonight! A bathtub (as test tank) is requisite. Speaking of pre-testing, here's a cool story: A predecessor to my "UltCrayfish" pattern was a scud jig for UL spinning gear for trout. I lived on a small tributary to a marginal mid-reach stretch of trout stream that wasn't too much farther than the bathtub, (and just so happened to be FULL of scuds). The very first UltScud jig I made I knotted to an UL rig, walked out the back door, and pitched it into a little pool to watch it. And found myself tethered to a very large trout for such a tiny stream. It was a 17inch brown that had entered the trib for the scuds. I then found that there were others in that little trib hunting scuds. I'd not even known they were there! The fishing lasted just a couple weeks before the little trib heated up, sending those trout back out into the main creek. Sometimes, you get lucky. I think the trick is to know exactly which of these conditions you are dealing with and adjust your flies and fishing accordingly. Interpreting conditions is critical. But it helps to know/have a bead on what they mean. This is the exportable stuff. | |
| Entoman | May 13th, 2013, 1:48 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Hey Spence, Just noticed the original precursor of the whole genre tucked in there. You still use 'em? Haven't seen anybody except Pyramid Lake, NV anglers carry those around for years. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Kschaefer3 | May 13th, 2013, 3:43 pm | |
Posts: 376 | Sometimes, you get lucky. That is a great story! As they say, "Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good." What a nice surprise when you're just going out to test. How long do your flies go through testing/use before they reach "Ult" status. That seems to be a rather lofty designation. | |
| Kschaefer3 | May 13th, 2013, 4:54 pm | |
Posts: 376 | I may have arranged these for the picture and just may have covered up things I might not want to share...I mean totally by accident. :) Just noticed the original precursor of the whole genre tucked in there. You still use 'em? Haven't seen anybody except Pyramid Lake, NV anglers carry those around for years. Easy what you're asking, Kurt! That just may be one of the flies Spence "accidentally" covered up. | |
| Oldredbarn | May 13th, 2013, 10:02 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | I'm not trying to be secretive ;), just up to my chin with preparations...Not sure what you might be talking about Kurt, maybe the Wooly Worm? | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| PaulRoberts | May 13th, 2013, 11:22 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | How long do your flies go through testing/use before they reach "Ult" status. That seems to be a rather lofty designation. They have to fill a niche, provide realism in mimicry, and flat out catch fish. The rest is hyperbole. Spence, have you seen Rich Osthoff's favorite big brown trout fly? What's he call it ... the ... arghhh... Soft Hackle Woolly Worm! Phew! Anyway, it's a tricked out Woolly Worm, tied with ultra-soft materials for motion. He goes to show that a generalized pattern can be a serious killer. Some say that attempts at realism are a good way to highlight "fakeness" (If I can make up my own flies, can I make up my own word? :) ). I believe this to be true, esp for educated fish. | |
| Entoman | May 14th, 2013, 5:11 am | |
Posts: 2604 | Not sure what you might be talking about Kurt, maybe the Wooly Worm? Of course! Don Martinez's classic from the 40's. Lengthen the tail a little and you have the ... :) Looks like they're dressed perfectly to type, too. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Oldredbarn | May 15th, 2013, 12:14 am | |
Posts: 2608 | I like his Black Martinez Nymph as well. I have some tied up around here somewhere but haven't been able to find them. I saw it in, "Tying Flies with Jack Dennis and Friends". A few years back I had a nephew stay here over night and let him tie a few. I took him the next day to an FFF fly tying expo. I was surprised, when I introduced him to some friends who were tying there, and he whipped out his Wooly Worms to show them off. I could of paid the boys a million bucks because they fawned over his flies like they were long lost creations from Marryat. One of my friends told how good the fly worked and gave him a half-a-dozen nice hooks to tie his next ones on. One guy pulled out a variation he had of his own and gave it to the kid as a model. U Good stuff! You get a little guy in front of those old crusty tiers and they melt and treat the boy like a prince. | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
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