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| Martinlf | May 13th, 2012, 11:18 am | |
 Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | This question is partly for Matt, and goes with my last post on the "To Debarb or not to Debarb" thread. As noted in that thread, on my last trip I lost several big fish after hookset. I've been trying to determine if it was the hookset itself, the hook type, some combination of the two, or just luck of the draw. If the former, I can work on it, if the latter, I'll have to look for my rabbit's foot. Most of my successful hooksets have evolved over the years into gentle quick lifts. This has worked on most of the fish I catch, though I've slowed the timing some for bigger fish. Now I'm thinking I should make more of a downstream motion more automatic on my hooksets, and that I need to work harder on the "God Save the Queen" delay with big fish. The last fish that shook off, described in Matt's "May Trout" thread, was sipping cripples/emergers in flat water. I was almost directly across from it, perhaps a little upstream. I tried a delayed lift, but may have not delayed enough, and I held the line firmly against the fish as it shook its head, instead of sweeping the rod down stream, giving a bit of line and letting water tension help with less bounce back. I'm thinking a slower sweep downstream and less immediate pressure would have given the hook a better chance of finding the corner of the fish's mouth, and a more secure hold. Any observations would be welcome. I had a great trip to the Catskills, and did land a few fish, but would like to improve my percentages up there. I've had days there where I landed almost every fish I hooked, but many more where several fish that I fully expected to see up close gave me the slip. Matt's comments that he too has his moments up there takes a bit of the sting out, but as you all know, we're in this game to learn. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Entoman | May 13th, 2012, 6:49 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Hook set - Don't over-think it Louis, or you'll end up with the "yips". :) My experience is that tightening up on a fish is the same (or should be) across the board. It's gotta be quick and light. What varies is when the angler should apply the tightening. The optimal point is when the fish is well turned down with mouth closed. When does this occur? Depends on the riseform, not the size of the fish. It's hard to react too fast to a 10 incher slashing at caddis. Conversely, a 20 incher slowly rolling on a fly is usually the cause for many a case of "buck fever" resulting in the fly being pulled away before the trout has even closed his mouth. But, both sized fish are capable of the same riseform. The angler must learn to come tight much like the successful bird hunter adjusts his lead and swing for individual shots. Forget "counting". It disconnects us from the process and inhibits developing the necessary instinct. Instead visualize what the particular trout is doing as if the water weren't there and it can be seen clearly. Pull the trigger when the fish has turned down with mouth closed in the mind's eye. The riseform will be the gauge allowing timing to adjust automatically for each situation. After awhile this will become instinctual, which it needs to be if this skill is going to be honed. Also avoid sweeping the rod. The quick movement of the fly required for a good hook set is hard to accomplish this way without too much power being applied. The line must be quickly lifted from the water so that the only resistance is provided by the fishes mouth. Angles are still important though. Lift in a direction towards the bank that has you in between, not the fish. Whether to go right or left depends on the angle or position relative to the fish and the direction of the current. Another biggie is mistaking slowness for delicacy and proper timing. I once fished with a guy who missed several nice ones in row by "counting" to control himself and then delicately (slowly) raising the rod (somehow the two often go together). When he asked what was wrong I replied, "Well, If you cast too far and land in the bank grass, do exactly what you've done with those last fish and you'll probably get your fly back onto the water without a snag". | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Martinlf | May 15th, 2012, 10:41 am | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Thanks, Kurt, and Matt for the PM. I may have developed the yips, or a run of bad luck one day in particular, though I had some very good results on other days. I've been doing some reading about hooksets, and found this interesting and funny (see the last paragraphs) article on the web: http://www.fishing.net.nz/index.cfm/pageid/56/view/yes/editorialID/121 And here's another interesting piece, though it should be noted that this occurred during a salmonfly hatch, with big flies for the fish to grab, and that the article does not mention how pressured the fish were. I'd venture to guess that highly pressured fish would spit sooner, especially if the flies on the water weren't such a meaty dish. http://www.fisheyesoup.com/article_details/325.html As I continue to ponder, I guess what I am wondering most about is exactly when a big sipping trout closes on a fly. I know to wait a while when I see a big head come up and eat, then head down, but with a little sip rise made by a big fish how long before the mouth closes? It's hard to envision the fish turning down, since he's not showing much of himself anyway. Any thoughts on this? Perhaps I'll just have to practice more on big fish to develop the instinct . . . for now the main obstacle (given work and family obligations) is getting the time to head up to the Catskills on a regular basis. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Entoman | May 15th, 2012, 12:13 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Louis - Like my last post, these comments are a general response to the topic for other readers as well, so for the highly experienced anglers, please forgive the lecturing tone.:) Especially as ground is covered that you are already very familiar with, or may have different ideas about. Matt?:) As I continue to ponder, I guess what I don't know is when a big trout closes on a fly when it sips. I know to wait a while when I see a big head come up and eat, then head down, but with a little sip rise made by a big fish how long before the mouth closes? It's hard to envision the fish turning down, since he's not showing much of himself anyway. Any thoughts on this? The same previously mentioned principles apply, though I admit the toughest fish to hook are the big boys sipping tiny flies requiring a downstream presentation. They're typically slow rises with little down turn. An angled set helps, but the line to the fish is still pretty direct and there's a good chance that you'll pull that tiny fly between his big teeth or scrape one of them for a bump, or maybe even have him on for a second or two. There are some things you can't do much about and a missed, felt, or farmed fish is not necessarily the angler's fault in this situation. The odds are much better on an oblique or upstream presentation, but sometimes you can't get away with that. Sometimes a little beetle pattern on a short shank offset hook helps and I always have a few on hand for such an emergency.:) Then there are the quick sippers... They can be truly maddening!:) What these tricksters are doing is hanging about six inches below the surface and tipping up with minimal effort to suck down something tiny every few seconds. The just show their noses and you'll find big beezers doing this in really good (meaning tough) lies with abundant minutiae on the water (tricos, midges, thick spinner falls). It's tough enough to get them (or yourself) to find the fly, let alone hook them. Again, sometimes the beetle pattern mentioned above or a tiny Wulff will do the business, but on these guys you have to be pretty quick. The good news is they will often give you multiple chances as they're pretty confident. I've often seen bumped fish start to rise again in short order. BTW, you bump a fish in this situation, change flies and hope he'll stay up.:) The bottom line is to recognize the riseforms and visualize what can't be seen so you can react accordingly. Spotting fish from an elevated position where you can clearly see the goings on is the best way to learn them. Take note of how the water surface is disturbed as well as what the fish is doing, as often that is your only clue. While there are broad categories, the truth is there are as many different riseforms as there are ways birds fly or where balls lay on a golf course. Not having enough opportunity to get out is a handicap, just like it is for a golf swing or shooting eye, but having the right principles ingrained is still a big advantage. Just like in those other sports execution comes after recognition. Blind execution doesn't increase the odds of success. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | May 15th, 2012, 12:21 pm | |
 Posts: 1776 | I was starting a long diatribe on how I came to begin looking at feeding and jaw mechanics after I'd missed fish (trout and bass) repeatedly (usually with visual takes), but the first article link you posted covers it well enough. As to educated fish expelling quicker, I don't really think so, but they are more apt to take gingerly (hackle tips). I've watched steelhead hold a yarn fly on the very tip of the snout by the very tips of the yarn fuzz, taste and let it go. There is no way to hook such fish, and if they weren't visuals, to detect such responses. With fly hooks it's not about power but timing. The slower the water (and larger the fish) the longer the delay. As to where they are hooked (like the corner) I think that has more to do with how confidently the fish takes, the angle/presentation type, and maybe current speed. And some pure luck. You can't really control where or how much fish you grab (except maybe by increasing hook gap). I tend to fight large fish cautiously until I can see where the fly/lure is located -at least when a small hook gap is involved. You won't win them all. And some days, it's not your fault. | |
| Martinlf | May 15th, 2012, 2:58 pm | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Thanks again, guys. I'm obviously obsessing over the sipper I mention in another post, and there are many reasons. First he was the only game in town after looking and waiting all day in steady rain to find some risers. Everyone I talked with wasn't finding anything, but when the rain stopped there was one possible spot, one my guide friend says he avoids because the fish are such bastards, even though many are big, and yes, a few fish were rising there very sporadically. Then all but one slacked off. He appeared to be ignoring adult apple caddis, sipping cripples or emergers. I had left my caddis box in the car. :( But I did have one apple caddis wet in my drying patch, left over from the previous day, so in business again. :) I had to stalk him in very flat water, and he knew I was there, moving upstream whenever I'd come alongside. Finally I stopped and waited and after what seemed like an eternity, yes! he slipped back down down for the necessary down and across cast. On the second cast he ate. I thought, "I've got you now, you $@%&!*!" Then a possibly too early and hard adrenaline fueled hookset, he was on for a few seconds, a couple of headshakes and nothing. Had it been one fish in a day of many, or not in this pool that has so often caused frustration before, or had I not waited all day for one fish when I could have just left when the rain got steady and made the three hour drive earlier to be home at a reasonable hour instead of midnight, it probably wouldn't have seated itself in my mind so. But I know that is all part of what keeps us so focused on this sport that at times seems more like roulette than a game of skill. See the "mystery fish" post a while back for a more eloquent description. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| PaulRoberts | May 15th, 2012, 3:43 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | When you are dealing with ONE fish, you are flirting with roulette. And then three hours to think about it in the car! Ouch! I searched and found several "mystery fish" posts. Which one are you referring to? | |
| Martinlf | May 15th, 2012, 5:26 pm | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Paul, see the "Who Played Who" thread, 7 posts down from the top on page 1 of the thread. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Entoman | May 15th, 2012, 7:51 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Louis - So that's the back-story behind the angst! FWIW, I agree with Paul. If you don't have a clear idea of what you did wrong, perhaps you didn't do anything wrong. Either way, my gut tells me there's probably nothing wrong with your timing from an habitual standpoint. A single fish like that can reside in the mind like a bad date with a girl you liked in your youth. There's a tendency to speculate on what you did wrong or at least could have done differently. What they also have in common is that it probably didn't matter what you did - it simply wasn't meant to be 'cause s#@t happens.:) Another cliche that holds true is they are the ones most remembered and they'll stay in your head 'til the next one. Some never go away!:) The truly captivated by our sport can't help it. Enjoy your victories in between as the next one to break your heart is just around the bend!:) | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | May 18th, 2012, 2:05 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | You know, guys, sometimes you just don't hook the bastards. There are enough variables involved with sticking a hook in a fish's jaw that sometimes they just don't come together the way we hope and there isn't much we can do about it. Yes, we are ALL haunted by "the big ones that got away" and what we might have done differently. Isn't that true in just about EVERYTHING in life? As they say, there are plenty of fish in the sea...er, in our case most of the time, the river (or lake or pond or whatever). Just focus on catching the NEXT big one. Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Martinlf | May 23rd, 2012, 2:01 pm | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | I'm back. Hooked and landed almost every fish during a 3 day trip this last weekend. Don't know what it is with those Catskill fish??? But the fish here at home were liking me just fine. But thanks guys for your patience with my past angst, and for the tips. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Wbranch | May 23rd, 2012, 8:16 pm | |
 Posts: 2733 | Louis, Wish you'd let me know u were going to be up. I was there Thursday - Sunday. I would like to know how you did - especially on Saturday. Matt | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Martinlf | May 23rd, 2012, 9:29 pm | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Will do Matt. See PM. My post may have not been clear enough. I fished in Central Pennsylvania, not the Catskills this past weekend. Fishing was OK, but hatching was relatively slow with the heat and clear skies. March Browns and some Cahills mostly. Caught some fish nymphing and then several on top near dark each day, with the exception of a few olives hatching Monday with the cloudy weather and light rain. I picked up several on top during the day then, but had to leave to go home before the evening hatch. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Jmd123 | May 23rd, 2012, 9:59 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | I think we may be near the transition time from day hatches to dusk sometime soon. Gonna find out tomorrow before the stream gets overrun with those seeking a trout dinner! Tying flies (Elkhair caddis in brown) right now... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
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