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KonchuApril 7th, 2012, 5:58 pm
Site Editor
Indiana

Posts: 505		Ever do any rearing to associate stages?
CrepuscularApril 7th, 2012, 7:46 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923		No rearing experience here.
CrepuscularApril 10th, 2012, 8:44 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923		I re-measured, 8.5mm. Well that throws a wrench into the works dosen't it. I'm not seeing the paired spots on abdomenal terga 3-7, but they can be faint, and seem to be visible on 4 and 6. And the head capsule is not like that of E. pleuralis. The ratio of head capsule width (2.2mm) to distance between antennae(1.1mm) is 2.0 which is below the 2.11-2.45 that Burian states for E. fragilis. But let me try and get some more photos posted ofthe forefemora and gill 1,and the head capsule of the E.pleuralis.
EntomanApril 10th, 2012, 3:49 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604		Hi Eric,

I re-measured, 8.5mm. Well that throws a wrench into the works dosen't it

Yes, it does - especially since these are immatures. I think it's safe to say they will ripen at well over 9mm.

Many of the characters studied for larvae and adults... are subtle and some are within the range of variation for E. fragilis and E. pleuralis

Because larva of all the Nearctic species of Epeorus have not been studied in detail it is not possible to provide a definitive diagnosis. Therefore, this diagnosis is now restricted to the group of species known for New England.

Ever do any rearing to associate stages?

This is a tough genus and working with immatures makes it more so. I think it's probable that some of the characters listed are not as diagnostic as hoped and more needs to be worked out. We have to be careful about leaning to much on Burian's paper for outside New England.

I'm not seeing the paired spots on abdomenal terga 3-7, but they can be faint, and seem to be visible on 4 and 6.

Though usually most obvious on segs 3 -7, I don't believe they must be limited to only those segs to be diagnostic. I'm seeing them on 1 - 3, very faint to barely noticeable on 4 - 6, and more obvious again on segs. 7 - 9.

At his point, I'm thinking pleuralis, with the differences due to development and gender. Though certain character's diagnostic value may be questioned (as Burian did), I don't think tergal dots is one of them.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
CrepuscularApril 10th, 2012, 4:02 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923

At his point, I'm thinking pleuralis, with the differences due to development and gender. Though certain character's diagnostic value may be questioned (as Burian did), I don't think tergal dots is one of them.

Yeah me too but, the head capsule is very different in shape, do you think that just a maturity thing? I tend to think not (but maybe gender?) but I'm certainly no expert. Hre is a photo of the head capsule of the E. pleuralis
EntomanApril 10th, 2012, 5:16 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604
do you think that's just a maturity thing? I tend to think not (but maybe gender?)

Could be either or both, Eric. Since I'm a West Coast guy, I have no anecdotal experience from handling these critters at various levels of development or gender to comment beyond what can be found in the scientific lit. Perhaps a worker with a lot of "hands on" field experience with this genus in your area will read this thread someday and comment, but that's a bit of a "message in a bottle" hope.:) Unless Luke has more comments, I'm afraid the only way to find the answer with absolute certainty is for you to rear them and send off pickled life stages to a willing ephemeropterist for determination.

Perhaps there's a chance new photos of the forefemora, lateral spines, 1st gills, and a real closeup of the posterior margin of a middle terga may help... Both specimens for comparison.
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
AdirmanApril 11th, 2012, 9:01 am
Monticello, NY

Posts: 505		I notice that these nymphs only have 2 tails wheras most other Mayfly nymphs have 3 (right?). Are these what you would call clinger nymphs? Also, what patterns would be most effective in imitating Epeorus nymphs? I've read that you need not be as fussy in "matching the hatch" w/ nymph patterns like you do when dry-fly fishing; mostly, getting the size approximately right being the most crucial factor. Would that be accurate?

Thanks,

Adirman
AdirmanApril 11th, 2012, 9:03 am
Monticello, NY

Posts: 505		Oh, I have another question: I've noticed that Epeorus looks very similar to Ephemerella Subvaria (Hendrickson) in the dun stage. What is the most effective way to tell the 2 apart? both hatches are early season and do they not overlap in many cases?

Thanks again,

Adirman
CrepuscularApril 11th, 2012, 11:19 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923		Adirman, yes Epeorus nymphs belong to the family Heptageniidae, which are considered "clingers". As far as the number of "tails" go, some have two and some have three in both the adult and nymph stage. The two tails does help in identifying Eperous nymphs from other Heptegeniids but there is another eastern Heptageniid that has two "tails", Spinadis simplex also has two "tails" but is rarely encountered and actually listed as endangered in some states. As far as imitations go, I have never really worried about tails in my nymphs, I know other do though, so that's personal preference. I suppose a hare's ear type nymph would be as good as any to imitate really any of the Heptageniid nymphs as long as the size is close to the naturals.
CrepuscularApril 18th, 2012, 10:01 am
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923
Oh, I have another question: I've noticed that Epeorus looks very similar to Ephemerella Subvaria (Hendrickson) in the dun stage. What is the most effective way to tell the 2 apart? both hatches are early season and do they not overlap in many cases?

Thanks again,

Adirman

Adirman, Ephemerella subvaria has three tails.
AdirmanApril 18th, 2012, 5:23 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 505		Crepuscular;

You mean in the dun stage, for E. subvaria right ? Does the Epeorus then only have 2 in the dun stage?
EntomanApril 18th, 2012, 10:56 pm
Northern CA & ID

Posts: 2604		Hi Adir,

It's kind of confusing isn't it? Just remember that most but not all heptageniids (stone clingers or flat heads) have three tails as nymphs and drop the middle one when becoming duns. The ephemerellids (spiny crawlers) always keep their middle tails as duns.

What throws anglers off is that a few Heptageniidae genera also lack a middle tail in the nymphal stage. There is only one of importance to eastern anglers - Epeorus (Quill Gordon, Yellow Quill).

Here's some examples of what I mean:

Hendrickson (crawler - E. subvaria)- three tails as both nymph and dun
Quill Gordon (clinger - Epeorus pleuralis) - two tails as both nymph and dun
March Brown (clinger - Maccaffertium vicarium) - three tails as nymph, two tails as dun

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman
AdirmanApril 19th, 2012, 5:22 pm
Monticello, NY

Posts: 505		Entoman;

Thank you sir as thats an excellent summary! Great to talk to you again!

Adirman
CrepuscularApril 19th, 2012, 6:17 pm
Boiling Springs, PA

Posts: 923		Yes thanks Kurt!
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