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Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 1:41 am
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Louis, Paul & Shawn, We got so far afield from scuds, perhaps it's a good idea to continue the discussion in it's own topic (should have done it sooner!).:) For those just joining in, check out the later part of the Gammarus thread for the discussion leading up to this. That's always been my observation as well, Paul. I'd only add a few things: 1. Long shank hooks that are weighted along the the entire shank are virtually impossible to get to ride point down. Everything has to be on top and the more wing the better. Even with DeFoe style legs and a canted tail, if there is simply a wingcase on top (or worse epoxy), I've never tested a fly of this type that wouldn't go point up on the longer hooks. The 200R types are the worst. Balance wise, all that extra weight makes them keel flies. 2. Even without weight, A long shank hook will run upside down if it's tied with a bunch of stuff sticking out underneath it. 3. The heavier the wire the more stable. 4. The shorter the shank the more stable (curved hooks aside). 5. The only way I've been able to get weighted and wingcased nymphs to track point down is with regular length heavy wire nymph hooks, canted and splayed tails, DeFoe style legs, and if the pattern can call for it, antennea slanting back on top. They can be lightly weighted under the thorax only. Sometimes bending the shank up from the middle helps, but not always. Oh, and no epoxy! Bearded legs or palmered thoraxes under a wingcase on nymphs will guarantee they ride upside down and I've never understood their popularity. Below is an example of what I mean. Little Yellow Stone Nymph #14 6. The knot is an important factor. I can't count the times that by simply changing the knot used, the fly will track properly. 7. Bearded or hackled streamer flies tend to ride on their sides unless the wing is very substantial. On my marabou patterns, I leave throats off and I always put a little complementary bucktail underneath to reinforce the marabou. This fly, designed to imitate pond (pin) smelt is a good example. The wire on this hook is pretty light. Anything, and I mean anything trailing underneath would cause this fly to turn on its side. Green Lantern Marabou #8
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

PaulRoberts	February 16th, 2012, 7:46 am
Colorado Posts: 1776	Nicely designed flies, Kurt. My last post on the Gammarus thread wasn't the most enjoyable reading I'm afraid. One of the most interesting findings was how such a tiny bit of turbulence created on the top of the shank just above the bend created a solidly stable point down orientation.

Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 11:10 am
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Thanks, Paul. One of the most interesting findings was how such a tiny bit of turbulence created on the top of the shank just above the bend created a solidly stable point down orientation. Yes, I agree. Another interesting thing that shows up in testing in a pool or pond is the impact of the knots. I don't necessarily mean different knots, either. Sometimes even re-tying the same knot will make a difference. Perhaps this is caused by line/leader torque? This must be it, since it's only noticeable when the fly design is on the edge of stability and the tippet isn't too long or light. This is why I believe it is so important to test flies with the kind of tackle that will probably be used with them. In other words, don't test a big heavy nymph or streamer with 5X or a 14 nymph with 2x just because the stuff is laying around when you're in the mood to do a little testing.
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Martinlf	February 16th, 2012, 11:25 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	It's too bad Gonzo is still busy with the ski season (I hope he's had enough snow), this discussion is one he might take some interest in, since his book describes ways to get nymphs to track wingcase up. Some will recall that he bends his hooks to create a dip in the middle, weights the dip, then uses poly yarn wingcases on some patterns to get his nymphs to right themselves. As I noted elsewhere, I tie a number of my nymphs to track hook up rather than fight to keep it down. Has anyone else tried this as their solution? As Kurt notes above it's not at all hard to do with the right hook and a bit of weight.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

PaulRoberts	February 16th, 2012, 11:27 am
Colorado Posts: 1776	Agreed. When testing flies for fishing, yes tippet size, and knots and their placement, must be considered. Just for the record, I chose the unfishable combinations I did bc they allowed me to circumvent leader torque. I simply wanted to isolate the basic influence of materials on bare hooks. Dave Whitlock touted the Duncan Loop (Uni-Knot Loop). My guess is he spent plenty of time water testing at least some of his wonderful creations. Louis, yes, I was hoping Lloyd would pipe in too. His book is wonderful.

Falsifly	February 16th, 2012, 11:50 am
Hayward, WI. Posts: 661	As I noted elsewhere, I tie a number of my nymphs to track hook up rather than fight to keep it down. Has anyone else tried this as their solution? Louis, I never gave this concept any thought until I read your post and now I too am curious as to what others have to say.
	Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."

Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 12:47 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	It's too bad Gonzo is still busy with the ski season (I hope he's had enough snow) Me too, Louis. I miss his lively and always thoughtful comments. Hurry back, Lloyd! Some will recall that he bends his hooks to create a dip in the middle Yes, as I mentioned in the scud thread, bending the hook up does work some of the time. I remember experimenting with the concept on B.H.'s years ago - no cigar... The funny thing is it often does or doesn't work from fly to fly, even of the same design! Weird... Anyway, because of that and not liking to mess with the temper of hooks, I've abandoned the practice and use other design methods. As far as purposefully designing nymphs to ride point up, Ken Iwamasa came up with a design years ago that was quite popular for awhile. However, tying flies on inverted hooks is a pain in the ass and I never quite got used to the looks of them. I'm also not a big fan of hooking fish in the palette if I can help it.
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Martinlf	February 16th, 2012, 2:03 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Kurt, I'd forgotten about the Iwamasa nymphs, but Flyfisherman Magazine had an article on nymph orientation a while back along with several patterns for inverted nymphs. Most of the fish I hook on these are in the upper lip, or to the side, and I don't recall hooking any fish in a way that I thought would harm them any more than any other hooking orientation. Given that many bead head commercial patterns end up inverted by accident rather than design, (see the bead head may in the Gammarus thread) a great many trout are being hooked on inverted nymphs these days. But we all have our druthers, myself included, and I understand.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

Falsifly	February 16th, 2012, 2:27 pm
Hayward, WI. Posts: 661	As far as purposefully designing nymphs to ride point up, Ken Iwamasa came up with a design years ago that was quite popular for awhile. However, tying flies on inverted hooks is a pain in the ass and I never quite got used to the looks of them. I'm also not a big fan of hooking fish in the palette if I can help it. Kurt, unless I’m mistaking, and I very well could be, the only flies Iwamasa tied with an inverted hook were dries. As far as being a pain in the ass that could sum up a lot of initial frustration when first attempting to tie flies, so inverting the hook and with a little practice it may prove no more difficult. Looks: a matter of subjectivity. The palette issue I hadn’t considered so I’m not sure of the point you’re making. I haven’t used barbed hooks since the mid nineties so I see no issue there.
	Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."

PaulRoberts	February 16th, 2012, 3:14 pm
Colorado Posts: 1776	I've use point up nymphs, and jigs, and I get no more palate hooked fish than I do tongue hooked fish with point down flies. IME, most subsurface hookups are in or near the corner of the jaws, or upper lip/maxilla, regardless of hook orientation.

Wbranch	February 16th, 2012, 3:22 pm
York & Starlight PA Posts: 2733	Kurt, Is the nice head on the Green Lantern just a built-up thread ball?
	Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.

Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 3:41 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Hi Al - Yes, I believe you are mistaken about Iwamasa. As for tying inverted nymphs being a pain it the ass, I misspoke. They're really a pain in the fingers.:) Since tiers usually work above the shank with a lot of back strokes to move materials (especially when applying wingcases), it's only a matter of time before they skewer themselves to the hilt! If they tie as much and as fast as I do, they'll do it a lot!:) I wasn't referring to difficulty of the method... When I do tie them, I apply the materials underneath, which is more difficult, but much safer! Ouch... As to looks, you're absolutely right about them being subjective. But that's all I have to go by.:) About palette hooking - it's very soft tissue and with a large fish the tiny little things can pull free after an extended fight pretty easily, especially when you're trying to net 'em. I don't think barbs are the issue, it's the thinness of the wire. Large hooks can pierce the brains or eyes of all but very large trout. An inverted size 8 hook can kill a 12 incher easily. I'm not a big fan of Clousers and other similar designs used on trout for this reason.
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 3:42 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Hi Matt, Yes, just large enough to paint the eyes.
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Falsifly	February 16th, 2012, 4:14 pm
Hayward, WI. Posts: 661	Thanks Kurt for clarifying the palette issue, points I would not have considered.
	Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."

Martinlf	February 16th, 2012, 4:29 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Matt would be one to comment on Clousers, thought he doesn't catch little trout with them. I don't tend to use large hooks on streams where I catch smaller trout, for a number of reasons, and I haven't had any problems with my inverted hooks piercing a trout's brain or eye. Tying in the round, as I typically do, using French nymph designs for most of my mays, doesn't have me adding materials on top. Different strokes for different folks, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from experimenting. Here's an article on nymph design some may enjoy, though Reynolds completely misinterprets Lloyd's design. http://www.flyfisherman.com/2011/05/28/freestyle-nymphs/ Not long after the article came out in print Flyfisherman published my letter pointing out the author's mix up on Lloyd's design. See Lloyd's book for a diagram of what he actually does. If one bends the hook and weights more of the back side of the bend,as Reynolds appears to do, the hook does flip over, as with the Vladi worm. That, by the way, is another inverted fly that works very well: http://www.flyguysoutfitting.com/tutorials/nymphs/vladi-worm Loren, the author of this site, was one of the first to discuss this topic of fly orientation with me, via a blog. He's a very generous guy, and, from what I hear, one hell of a guide.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 5:32 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	You're welcome, Al. Louis - I think Paul made a good case in demonstrating that the vast majority of nymph designs when sinking and/or fished under tension will do so upside down. I agree with him wholeheartedly. Does that mean that I forswear all heavily weighted nymphs, poxy backs and bead heads? No, my boxes are full of them. Most of the time I fish my nymphs dead drift, when these patterns are hanging vertically. Their orientation doesn't matter in this circumstance. We are discussing nymph designs you may want to move or fish under some tension. Most of the fish I hook on these are in the upper lip, or to the side, and I don't recall hooking any fish in a way that I thought would harm them any more than any other hooking orientation Do most of the fish you hook up this way do so on dead drift presentations as mentioned above? I suspect that may explain a lot of them. A fly hanging close to vertical (as all nymphs do to greater or lesser extent unless you are using a line that sinks as deep as the fly), tends to counteract any influence the horizontal posture the nymph may have regards hooking. Also, flies do turn in the mouth before catching hold, so we are talking probabilities, not absolutes. As far as harming the fish, I agree that isn't an issue with the little flies. Even the odds of hooking a fish in the brain with a big hook are probably statistically low, though eye piercings are common. I have seen the former, though. It isn't intended, but they do end up in the pan that night.:)
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Entoman	February 16th, 2012, 7:45 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Louis - Sorry for not addressing your previous post! I had my last one up for quite awhile and didn't submit it, so was oblivious to what you had written in the interim. Interesting links you posted, thanks. As to the first one, I found it a little confusing. Wasn't he discussing Lloyd's techniques for keeping the hook up? Then he has a photo that looked like a hybrid of Lloyd's weighting method - neither his upright or inverted if I correctly remember the way he does it. The author also fails to discuss fully the two most salient factors that weigh heavily on this topic. First, most of the time our flies are fishing vertically so upright/inverted orientation is not important anyway and secondly, if you have a bunch of stuff sticking out below, I'm pretty sure it's gonna role the fly over when it's horizontally fished. This happens no matter what you do. He seems to intimate differently. BTW - I've never tied Lloyd's flies and tested them, so I cannot comment one way or the other except to say that if he says they stay upright, I have no direct evidence to believe otherwise.
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

PaulRoberts	February 16th, 2012, 10:36 pm
Colorado Posts: 1776	I rarely fish a nymph hanging straight below an indicator, except possibly in very slow water or perfectly laminar current (vertically speaking) and with mends provided. Any current causes the fly to be lead, either by rod tip, line, or indicator. This is bc surface flow is faster than near bottom flow. Thus, my nymphs are almost always being pulled along, (but I keep them at very close to that deeper current speed).

Entoman	February 17th, 2012, 12:03 am
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Well, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I confess ignorance of your method, but even if they're being pulled along, unless your czech nymphing or using an HD line, they're still suspended at a pretty steep angle if they're near the bottom, aren't they? Unless of course, you're way out in front with a lot of leader between flies and indicator. Are you talking about a modified "greased line" technique? You're right about the flows, which is why I try to throw the indicator well behind the flies with a mend or two so that by the time they're in the zone the indicator is hopefully somewhere over the top of them. As the rig drifts down stream, the indicator will start to drag as the flies resist being "led" (hopefully past the sweet spot I've targeted). That is when I'll either reposition the indicator behind the flies to continue the drift, or pick them up to start over. If the indicator is properly matched to the rig it will put far less pressure on the flies than the flies will put on it. Once it starts to drag it slows almost to the speed of the nymphs in good current. I prefer the hinged rig and yarn indicator for this reason. The 'wing" will tip over and point away from the flies the second it starts to lead. The right angle and full length tippet helps the flies to stay below the indicator without a lot of bowing due to water resistance of the thicker and in line leader stock. The thin full length tippet coupled with enough weight allows for mending the indicator without introducing too much bow resistance lifting the nymphs from depth. Even in fast flows, I can usually get by with the tippet not being to much longer than water depth, provided I use enough weight and mend properly. It's true that the deeper and faster the flow, the shorter the sweet spot length, but my goal continues to be to keep that indicator as close to over the top as possible. Fortunately, the same conditions that cause a shrinkage of the sweet spot, also allow a more aggressive use of mends without risk of spooking the fish. I have no idea how many fish I've hooked "accidentally" with an "induced take" while mending over a sweet spot. Anyway, the bottom line is if my nymphs are near the bottom and my tippet isn't much longer than the water is deep and my indicator is still floating, those flies are pretty vertical. Even bead heads sink tail first in line with the tippet. That was the point I was trying to make, and remains the reason I'm so interested in your tiny jigs.:)
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

PaulRoberts	February 17th, 2012, 12:32 am
Colorado Posts: 1776	I gathered that was your interest in the jigs. I looked a bit into hook sizes and could not find them less than a size 12. I only use the yarn/right angle/mending type presentation on slow, or smooth, flows. When it comes to more turbulent water, I allow the flies to be lead, making sure the faster surface currents are flowing past (moving faster than) the indicator. Sounds, again, like you are fishing larger waters than I. Less anyone be misled, the methods presented and discussed here are complimentary, not contradictory, and they all have their place.

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