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| Redtag | February 11th, 2012, 2:00 pm | |
| The Netherlands Posts: 4 | I think these guys will be fine to catch some fish. They made with antron dubbing, indian skin fibers and epoxy back. They are made on TMC #10. This is NOT a photo, but I did scan the freaks with my scanner on 300 dpi. You like them??? | |
| Jesse | February 11th, 2012, 5:38 pm | |
 | Great looking!! | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Shawnny3 | February 12th, 2012, 9:42 am | |
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PAPosts: 1197 | Nice flies (and scanner), Redtag. Very lifelike. The fibers used for the legs and antennae have a really nice girth to them. But that makes me wonder if there are too many, particularly on the first and last flies - might want them to be a little sparser. | |
| Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 12th, 2012, 2:45 pm | |
 Posts: 1776 | Very nice. You have wonderful skills. I'd like to offer some constructive criticism, if I may... There is one problem with many anatomically-correct-in-hand fly designs -They often do not act like the intended creature when tethered to a line and submerged. My guess is those flies will swim upside down, bc the turbulence created by the soft fibers (the "swimmerets" in this case) will create lift, exacerbating the tendency of tail-less hooks when tethered and drawn or falling through the water to do so shank down/point up. Weighting the shank exacerbates this tendency even further. Knowing how turbulence/drag affect your design is worth considering. We spend enough time on our designs to ignore such things. This issue is the bane of fly designers everywhere -at least for flies designed to look like a specific creature in hand. Every fly should be tested tethered and submerged -a bathtub works well enough. Also, fw shrimp are good swimmers, and they open up when they swim, so their shape is not curled except when tucked under cover. Hope this can be taken as constructive critique. You obviously have skills. If these flies do swim right-side up, except my apology and tell me how you did it. | |
| Martinlf | February 12th, 2012, 4:20 pm | |
 Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Good points, Shawn and Paul. I think Redtag should let the fish have a go at them, though. Here's why: scuds swim all kinds of ways, right side up, upside down, sideways, and if these flies are fished right on the bottom, with some split shot, I suspect as they drag over rocks, etc. they will turn this way and that. That said, I generally try to find ways to get my scuds to track shell back up as much as possible. It's a challenge, especially if one wants to weight the fly. In one attempt I used Tiemco 2499's a hook with a lot of steel in the bend and point. I do need to check these flies in the bathtub, though, as Paul recommends. Does anyone have any other tips to accomplish this? A bubble of air along the back would help in an epoxy fly, but I can't figure out how to introduce a large enough bubble to make it work. Perhaps a back of CDC and a thin coating of epoxy on top of that? Or use a straight hook, weight below the shank, and keep the feathers sparse, as Shawn recommends? Using flexible scud back might help keep some air in the back, for a while, until the fly is saturated. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Entoman | February 12th, 2012, 4:49 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Great looking flies red tag, though I must confess that I've never seen a root beer colored scud in nature. Paul is right that the shape and hook selection is for dead drift presentations. A straight shank hook is a better chassis to design on if you intend to impart action to the fly as you probably would in stillwater situations. As far as designing a super realistic scud that swims upright, I don't think it can be done. Even without the heavy epoxy, all the legs and fuzz coming out from the underside of the shank will turn it over. The good news is scuds are goofy critters with a lousy sense of orientation so they often swim sideways, upside down, even in circles. Who knows why, but this fact means a fly that fails to swim upright isn't necessarily a deal killer. Frankly, the need for highly imitative scud patterns is dubious. For most anglers, carrying them around all the time is like carrying around patterns to imitate hatches they never fish over. First off they aren't very important in most places and even where they are, well... There is a high dessert creek I fish a lot that is loaded with 'em. I've fished just about every scud style you can think of over those fish including the Stalcup style poxybacks like yours and haven't found them as effective as the typical run of little attracter nymphs we all use (Flashback PT's, BH princes, Zug Bugs and such). There are also a couple of lakes I fish a lot that are full of them. One in particular has such dense populations that the fish are a beautiful orange fleshed variety (see Konchu's comments http://www.troutnut.com/topic/1489/why-the-color-#29347) that are about as toothsome as any fresh salmon you'll eat. This lake produces the typical western mix of Callibaetis, various terrestrials, Chironomid and damselfly fishing during normal weather. Overcast days are a different matter and scud imitations are very effective when slowly stripped and twitched along the weedbeds. I haven't found anything that works better than a Bird's Nest for this, but I tie them with a blend of olive and hare's ear colored Buggy Nymph brand dubbing. Natural fur is a little too drab and opaque for this purpose. It's a real killer either fished alone, or dragging behind a leech/wooly bugger of some sort. Another plus is the fly always fishes upright so it can also be a fair representation of a lot of other stuff they feed on as well. It is a shrimpy looking thing in the water though. Olive Bird's Nest #14  | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 12th, 2012, 4:52 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Unfortunately, air bubbles haven't been reliable for me. Foams are too bulky, although I'm all ears for ideas. My best scuds are tied two ways: -On tiny jigheads -1/100, and 1/64 oz. -The other is simply tied longer than any you see, in keeping with their ability to swim outstetched. And yes the real creatures do rock side to side, esp as they turn, but really, I cannot truly imitate their movements over any distance. I believe we rely on rough mimicry coupled with fish expectation, activity level, and sky/water conditions to fool them. Both patterns use gray squirrel body hair, or Australian Possum, dubbed, ribbed, then picked trying to curb the desire to model one like a real one in hand, that is, too much picking along the bottom. The trick to reliably righting a hook is a tail (for tail drag like a fletched arrow), and more drag on top than on the bottom. If you figure other stuff out, please let me know. These scuds fish VERY well, remaining one of the most effective flies I've created. In fact, the very first time I fished the prototype (on a 1/64th oz jighead), I had an unexpected surprise. I lived on a marginal little trib to the mid-reaches of a good (but unsung) trout stream that turned out to be full of scuds in the algae covered cobbles (It drained a golf course). Since I had the creek just steps from my door I tested flies there. I stepped up to a small run (it was a small creek ~12ft wide) and swum the little jig back into the tailout, and the line stopped with a good “whump!”. I tightened and felt the line stretch tighter! It turned out to be a 17inch brown (!) that I ran back up to the house with, and put in the bathtub for some hours as my Dad was due that evening for a visit. We had fished the main creek together a lot a few years. I then turned it loose. | |
| Entoman | February 12th, 2012, 5:46 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Yeah, weight distribution is only part of the problem, Paul. I think the main factor is water resistance? Water flowing past the artificial (either when it's sinking or being pulled forward) catches the stuff below the shank and flips it over. At least that's what I've always observed. BTW - I stand corrected. Jigs would be a solution. But those sound like pretty big shrimpsters you're imitating if you can get by with those. Most of the ones I run into are in the 14 to 16 range. I know a few Oregon lakes where they run as large as size 10 though even those are too small to imitate with jigs, aren't they? I forgot there is a highly imitative pattern I'll use for dead drifting as part of a high stick rig when scuds are about, so I guess I stand corrected again. On occasion it has done good work for me. There's enough lead in it to anchor a small boat though.:) Heavy Scud #12  | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 12th, 2012, 7:33 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | No, tiny jigheads have small hooks. I use a Do-It mold and can put a range of hook sizes in, down to a #16 (gap). Overall jig size would be akin to a #14 fly -fine for many of the scuds I've seen. I also used some tinned hooks that I could re-shape and reduce gap. | |
| Entoman | February 12th, 2012, 7:42 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Wow Paul, that is cool... One of the concerns I have at times are the vertical poses nymphs take when drifting under an indicator. Seems to me that isn't too natural. The fish don't seem to care most of the time, but I wonder if it has become a problem in heavily fished waters where the fish can get incredibly picky? Size 14 shank length is plenty small enough for a lot of important bugs, especially ephemerellids and hydropsychids! Do you have any photos? | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Lastchance | February 12th, 2012, 9:56 pm | |
| Portage, PA Posts: 437 | I ain't never seen no 20 inch fish in Spring Creek. Bruce, Goose, Feathers5, Lastchance | |
| Entoman | February 12th, 2012, 11:15 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Huh? Wrong thread, Bruce... Or am I talking to Feathers5?:) | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Martinlf | February 12th, 2012, 11:20 pm | |
Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Paul, like Kurt, I'd like to see a photo if possible. I've thought of doing something like what you describe, though not with a jig. I have yet to come up with a design I like, however. Now you really have me thinking. Also, see George Daniels' book Dynamic Nymphing for some other flies tied on jig hooks. | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 13th, 2012, 2:59 am | |
Posts: 1776 | I'll dig around and see what I have. I have two deadlines pressing though, so this is going to be backburned for a bit (as well as the Parafilm people have asked about). I may have to post used and abused flies. Would prefer to tie a couple to show. For the time being, take Kurt's Bird's Nest above in salt-n-pepper squirrel or possum with a picked out "tail" and picked out body, esp sides and top and you pretty much have it. I ribbed with wire but it may not be necessary. | |
| Redtag | February 13th, 2012, 3:14 am | |
| The Netherlands Posts: 4 | O.K. guys, The gammarus is moving in different directions. The gammarus I've made is moving in all directions. By the way. Most of all flies and nymphs we are making swim upright, because of the weight. I know gammarus is moving like a swimmer, stretched and curved. There are many pictures and movies about the gammarus on internet. There are also different colors of them. These are my first made gammarus. I will make more of them in different sizes and colors. I also will make a gammarus with a red spot. When the are done I will post them here. By the way,.....I'm from The Netherlands. Thight lines guys. | |
| Entoman | February 13th, 2012, 12:18 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Paul -I may have to post used and abused flies. Would prefer to tie a couple to show. No problem. We're angler's here after all. Abused flies are a sign of success. Few (if any) of the flies I've posted have been mint fresh. The ones above included. As long as they give a good idea of the concepts you're talking about, I'll be very happy.:) I ribbed with wire but it may not be necessary. Good point. Mine is ribbed with gold wire. The fly has been fished, so it's not showing in the picture, but when it's wet it shows. Another option would be to rib the abdomen with mono, I guess. Redtag - By the way,.....I'm from The Netherlands. Welcome! Thanks for pointing it out, I didn't notice. For American sensibilities, try a few olive hued numbers with an orange spot. I'm not up on scuds in Europe, but I think "scuds is scuds" wherever they're found. We have them in various shades of olive with tannish, grayish, or yellowish highlights, some even with a slight bluish cast. They can run from size 8 to flea sized, depending on species, locale, and maturity. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Entoman | February 13th, 2012, 1:19 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Bird's Nest above in salt-n-pepper squirrel or possum Here's the other version I use on stillwaters. The thorax is normally a little fuller and some of the wing is missing, but fish have worked this one over pretty good. Bird's Nest #16  | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 13th, 2012, 1:42 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | I don't have any squirrel ones remaining as I haven't fished them in a while. But I do have a couple well used orange-ish ones I had tied up to match some I found here in CO, that show the upright (point down) design: There are advantages to having the point ride hook up though, something tough to avoid with weighted flies. (The point-down scud design above is unweighted.) Point down flies catch bottom muck, esp important with heavily weighted flies to be fished active. I was working on a point-up swimming scud a while back (following up on a crayfish design that I really like) and have a few prototypes. Will work a good one up and share it. I took two directions: A sickle-shaped design with a smooth belly, drag on top, and a "tail" for movement. The second was lots lead over dubbing, wire rib, and then crushed very flat, which causes it to slice water and dart side to side. Both look good in the water but the first shows more stability in current. | |
| Entoman | February 13th, 2012, 2:04 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Hmmm... Very interesting, Paul. I never thought of using a hook like this on a Bird's Nest for stillwaters. I like your logic. Where would you put the wing to enhance the action you are talking about? I'm thinking underneath reaching to just short of the barb? | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 13th, 2012, 2:19 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | This fly was designed for stream fishing. What wing are you referring to? | |
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