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Martinlf	July 5th, 2007, 1:29 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	OK, trying not to be a smart ass, I wasn't going to say this, but with threats of more teasing coming I'll note that if you'll learn the ligature knot, Gonzo, you can non-slip mono your nymphs without fear. :) P.S. That last comment, I just noticed, like many fly fising phrases, sounds mildly pornographic. And a bit kinky. Well, one would only suspect such to be naturally applicable to Gonzo's pursuits.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
GONZO	July 5th, 2007, 1:56 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	You're probably right on both counts, Louis! :) But, using the ligature would take most of the convenience out of the system I currently use, and I'm just not convinced that a loop knot to the fly has that many advantages in nymphing. I can see the added movement it provides for actively fishing flies like Clouser Minnows or weighted Wooly Buggers, but as I put a loop in the middle of many of the larger or swimming nymphs I tie (the "hinged" flies), I don't know if it might actually detract from their action. (As always, however, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong.) PS--Should we mention that one of our favorite fishing spots is sometimes called the "Porn Hole?" Probably not. :) PPS--On a more serious note, I did speculate earlier in this thread that I might be able to achieve the strength balance I like (breaks at the fly rather than in the leader/tippet) by adjusting the number of turns in the non-slip mono loop between the leader-to-tippet connection and the fly connection. But, until I learn to tie them as small as you do, that will have to remain speculation.
Wiflyfisher	July 5th, 2007, 4:57 pm
Wisconsin Posts: 663	Interesting thread, I am curious about a few things... 1) In your testing what tippet material are you using? 2) How long are your tippets? 3) Are you testing using the same tippet material and tippet lengths?
	John S. https://WiFlyFisher.com
GONZO	July 5th, 2007, 5:43 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	John, Louis is the testing maven, so he'll have to account for the process. I'm just a kibitzer.
Martinlf	July 5th, 2007, 6:27 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	John, we have a whole tippet thread started. But rather than dig it up, I'll mention what I've been doing, which differs from stream to stream etc. All my recent testing if field testing, and it's far from controlled. I've mostly been using Frog Hair tippet in lengths of about 3-5 feet, but recently switched over to Enrico Pugllisi tippet, which is rated at a higher test for 6X and smaller. John Dunn likes the Puglisi stuff, as does a guy out west who swears by it for small flies. In my home lab tests last winter it seemed about the same strength as Frog Hair, but when I switched to it, I also stopped using the Orvis knot and that day I hooked and landed four relatively big fish in a row on 6X with no break offs. Some fish were landed with Trilene knots, some with 7-turn Clinch knots. Now I know I'm introducing too many variables to have any scientific conclusions, and that all my so called results may simply be due to circumstances that I do not really understand, but I have broken off three big fish that I can remember in the last few months using the Orvis knot and Frog Hair, and I'm just feeling a lot better about the Clinch knot or Trilene knot right now. For years I used the Clinch and last year broke very few fish off, if any. I don't blame Frog Hair for any of the problems, but superstitiously will probably favor the Puglisi at least for a while. OK, now I'm motivated to dig up the tippet thread. I'll see what I can do. The guy out west who uses Puglisi is worth citing.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
BxRxTxK	July 7th, 2007, 6:32 am
western NC Posts: 29	I would just like to thank all the smarter brains on the forum for sharing some of there knowledge... I went fishing the past three days in a row.. yesterday, after reading this thread I decided to try using the non slip mono loop for a whole day of nymphing... now the day before I was using the improved clinch which I learned as a child and have been using for more than 20 years, and had 3 break offs.(one being the biggest fish of the day, and with my fly in its mouth.) yesterday I not only had no break offs but I believe I really did see an improvement in the amount of strikes, and I certainly caught more large fish than usual on the body of water I was fishing... these factors I assume were due to the nymphs having more range of movement, of course I have no way to prove, or disprove this theory... but thanks again to all of you for sharing your wisdom... ------------------------------->Buddy
Martinlf	July 7th, 2007, 9:09 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Buddy, I can certainly symphthize about the break offs. They are tough to bear. I'm glad you found some help in this tangled thread. Lefty Kreh swears by the non-slip loop, and tied correctly it appears to be very strong. I'm leaning towards the 7-turn clinch knot these days over the improved clinch, though Al Caucci told me recently that the improved version is his favorite knot. You are right about not knowing for sure, but I do believe that over time we often find what works best for our individual needs by trial and error, and that when we do it is satisfying and productive. Tight lines, friend.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Wiflyfisher	July 7th, 2007, 10:36 am
Wisconsin Posts: 663	Louis, (and others) sorry I wasn't intending to break the thread. My thought was when referring to favorite knots... Will different types of leader material effect the performance of a knot? Will the length of the tippet effect the strength of the knot. We all start snipping off flies thus the tippet becomes shorter with every fly change. I have always felt (right or wrong) a longer tippet acts as a shock absorber and will help the knot hold better. (Plus, give a longer, more natural drift.) I do prefer the improved clinch knot for tippet to fly and I feel when the knot does fail it is usually due too human error (meaning me). I believe moistening the loops before pulling the knot tight really helps reduce the friction. Many synthetic materials are effected by heat and friction. Plus, the amount of pressure I put on a hard fighting fish may be too much for the knot and/or tippet. Again that points back to my mistakes not the knot itself. Also, how many fish are caught on the same knot before retying might effect the results. I have never tried the non-slip mono loop but it does appear that it would give more freedom of movement to a nymph. I want to try it in the near future. Thanks!
	John S. https://WiFlyFisher.com
IEatimago	July 7th, 2007, 10:45 am
Spring Mills, PA Posts: 97	very knotty thread.
GONZO	July 7th, 2007, 11:04 am
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	John, Buddy, and Shawn, I think I can hear Louis chortling with glee that he has convinced so many of you to tie those fussy little loops when attaching your fly. But not me, my friends, not me . . . . . Well, maybe. Anyway, somehow Louis has been convinced to tie my articulated Iso nymph, which I'm sure he finds tedious and frustrating, so I may have actually won that round! ;) (Maybe, again, because the Prof is pretty good at turning the tables on me. By the way, Louis, since we're toying with literary challenges--"Louis chortling"--what's appropriate about that?) PS--John, your questions are quite appropriate, and the assumptions you make about tippet length/brand and some of the reasons that knots fail are well taken.
Martinlf	July 7th, 2007, 11:48 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Gonzo, I note that you do use the non-slip loop for tippet to leader connections, so don't gloat prematurely. I'm clueless about the literary significance of "Louis chortling," though. Now you can gloat. But remember, I do get even.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
GONZO	July 7th, 2007, 11:58 am
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	C'mon, Louis! The word "chortle" was coined by another Louis/Lewis who was also known to travel through the looking glass at times. (Though he may have had some pharmaceutical assistance.) PS--No need to retaliate; after my haiku snafu, I'll consider it a draw if you will. Pick on Roger for a while--he's the one posting pornographic caddisfly photos! :)
Wiflyfisher	July 7th, 2007, 12:29 pm
Wisconsin Posts: 663	Lloyd, I do agree it looks like a fussy little loop knot that takes extra time and effort to tie. Sometimes the extra effort may give better rewards, which reminds me about some author who wrote about that sometimes the best fishing comes from making the extra effort to cross the stream and fish where others dare (k)not. I do think we have a tendency to over analyze things at times and forget about factors that we cause and fail to realize how they may effect our results. I know at times when I should have re-tied a fly knot before casting again and thus I lost the best fish of the day. There are also many times I wish I could have a replay, instead I am haunted by the what ifs I had handle the situation differently I may have landed the big fish. I always lean toward the thought it was my own errors that lost the fish and not because I used this knot or that.
	John S. https://WiFlyFisher.com
GONZO	July 7th, 2007, 12:43 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Touche on that reference, John! I believe that same fellow once said that "success comes from a willingness to do things that others consider too much trouble." (!) I am well chastised and humbled. Thank you! ;)
Wiflyfisher	July 7th, 2007, 2:19 pm
Wisconsin Posts: 663	I thought a little of your own logic would hit home. :-) Plus, it lets you know I really did read your book. (Some of the sections on various patterns I did not bother reading word for word.)
	John S. https://WiFlyFisher.com
GONZO	July 7th, 2007, 2:41 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Some of the sections on various patterns I did not bother reading word for word. Probably wise. As for being hoist by my own petard, it's not the first time. ;)
Martinlf	July 7th, 2007, 8:03 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	John, I am absolutely in agreement with you on trying to analyze what I've done wrong that led to a lost fish, and the times that most perplex me are when I honestly don't know if it was something I could have done differently or not. But I am relatively confident that several of the fish who broke my Orvis knots would not have broken a clinch. Two had very little pressure on them when the knot failed, and I was so thoroughly surprised that I just knew that it wasn't something I did playing them. I may have tied the knot badly, and almost remember a twist in one loop that I wasn't sure I got out, but other times I'm as sure as I can be that the knot was tied exactly as per the Orvis directions on their website. Still, as I noted, I accept the possibility that I just don't tie the knot well. Anyway, I'll have to find a new excuse in the future for Gonzo to scoff at because I'll never never use an Orvis knot again. But I very much appreciate your observations and the spirit of them. I really want to figure out why so many big fish (and some smaller ones too--but they don't bother me as much) have slipped the hook on me this year. My second day on the Delaware I hooked four nice fish and landed every single one of them. The next day, in heavy rain with few fish working I hooked two and lost both. I really wanted to land at least one of them, and both were nice fish. The first made two long runs, and at the end of the second one the line just went slack and I reeled back my fly. The second fish was a nice rainbow that I stalked and worked hard to get to eat the fly. A few head shakes and he was free. I lost two big fish on the Little J during sulphur time as well. Last year I didn't hook as many fish 17" or larger as I have this year, but I landed every darn one except one real monster. Either my luck is just bad this year, or there's something I can improve on in my hooking or playing of the fish. If it's the latter I hope I can figure it out, if the former, I trust the cosmos will even things out in the future. Gonzo, No fair using homonyms!!
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Taxon	July 7th, 2007, 9:45 pm
Site Editor Royse City, TX Posts: 1350	Pick on Roger for a while--he's the one posting pornographic caddisfly photos! :) For heaven's sake Gonzo, let well enough alone:)
	Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
Wiflyfisher	July 8th, 2007, 4:37 am
Wisconsin Posts: 663	Louis, I don't know what the Orvis knot is but I swear by the improved clinch knot. I hope you figure it out on those big Delaware trout!
	John S. https://WiFlyFisher.com
Davez	July 11th, 2007, 6:40 am
Pennsylvania Posts: 59	i have only scanned this thread and become lost in it at various times. Im slow. On loop knots, what about a homer rode loop? I have used this simple but effective knot tarpon fishing, and never had a break off at the fly.

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