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Fly Tying

> Help with Gonzo style nymph......

Bjanzen	November 2nd, 2006, 6:58 am
Near Chattanooga, TN Posts: 13	I purchased a copy of Lloyd Gonzales' book in June. It was LOVE at first sight. However, the problem has been learning the techniques. I am realively new to tying. I started in Feb. and have tied maybe 1k flies or a little more. I am getting much better at drys and streamers (I have started throwing old flies away because they look so ugly!) but I have had trouble with nymphs other than Prince's. I guess my problem is trying to make a neat little dry fly head on a nymph. I have trouble with tying the wing case (CA is used too) and then dubbing if needed and still keeping the thorax small. With Gonzo style poly backs, the big puffy back (maybe I should use less than the full poly yarn) seems to push the thread to the head and dubbing cover is tough. Any help would be appreciated. Barry
GONZO	November 2nd, 2006, 10:31 am
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Hi Barry, Glad you like the book. Most of the difficulties you mention seem to relate to the age-old problem of "crowding the head" of the fly. I sympathize, as I'm sure most tiers do; nearly all "new" tiers confront this issue as they attempt to refine their skills. Here are some ideas that helped me to overcome this issue in my own tying: Plan for "headspace." Early in one's tying experience, materials seem to have a mind of their own and are constantly migrating toward the eye of the hook. Rolling, slipping, using too much material or thread, or inaccurate placement all tend to produce this frustrating effect. If a thread wrap or material ends up somewhere other than where you intended, unwrap and try again. If you get the same result, try to figure out why it is happening. Some of our most valuable tying discoveries occur during this (admittedly frustrating) trial-and-error process. Practice "economy" in the application of thread and material. Never use two wraps if one will do. Every wrap of thread should serve a purpose, and random or misplaced wraps are the enemies of economy and accuracy. Keeping the tip of the bobbin close to the fly is a tremendous aid toward accurate thread placement. At each stage of construction, consider the current purpose of the wraps you are applying and make sure those wraps accomplish that task. Two appropriately tensioned and accurately placed wraps are always better than ten random and inaccurate wraps. It is usually easier to add material than to remove it (or worse, to try to "work around" too much material). Controlling a "noodle" of dubbing can be tricky. First, a long noodle tends to defeat accuracy by keeping the bobbin tip too far from the hook. Second, long or carelessly twisted noodles tend to expand and unravel as the wraps are applied. (I twist dubbing onto the thread in one direction--the direction of the thread's twist. Try not to roll back and forth, and avoid snapping your fingers at the end of a rolling stroke. Both of these actions tend to loosen dubbing.) While most experienced tiers can efficiently wrap an abdomen or thorax in a single dubbing operation, there is nothing wrong with applying multiple thinner or shorter applications until this skill is acquired. As to the specific problem with the poly-yarn wingcase, I suspect you may be trying to use too much poly. A moderate hump is the goal, but "big" and "puffy" may be overkill. The forward rolling or slipping of the thread as you attempt to secure the poly at the front of the thorax can also be caused by a bulky overdubbed thorax. Unlike nymphs where the thorax dubbing is to be picked out to suggest legs, thin dubbing is more effective, especially over weight. (Thick dubbing creates bulk and can even defeat weight and balance.) I like to secure the poly with a few tight wraps that seat just into the forward edge of the thorax dubbing rather than onto the hook shank. That way the cut ends of the poly can be wrapped down in the headspace without the securing wraps slipping forward. If you have trouble dubbing the head because of a severe taper or ramp, try "reverse dubbing" (winding the thread to the eye and dubbing back to the securing wraps with very thin, tight dubbing). You can then make your whip finish or knot at the front of the thorax rather than the eye of the hook. This is not traditional, but I do it whenever it seems easier or more appropriate and find no disadvantage. Make sure you can see what you are doing. Use good lighting and background, and check the "dark side of the moon" (the other side of the fly) frequently. I have a fishing friend who claims that one of my most valuable assets as a tier is excellent close-in vision. I am slowly losing this edge with age and find that I have to pay more attention to things that make it easier to see. (Though I haven't resorted to reading glasses--yet!) Proportion, accuracy, and economy are hallmarks of accomplished tiers, but these are hard-won skills. Even when tying flies of my own design, I still get frustrated when my skills lapse into sloppiness. Some days my tying is easy and effortless; on others it seems clumsy and accident prone. But a well-tied fly is always worth the effort. (Despite this, many trout have succumbed to less-than-stellar tying skills in the past and will continue to do so.) Best wishes and good luck!
Troutnut	November 2nd, 2006, 4:58 pm
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Even I still have trouble crowding the head sometimes. It's almost always when I haven't tied for a few months... I have to tie a couple duds to pound it back into my head that I need to leave room. It's so tempting not to. Never use two wraps if one will do. More sage advice I should practice more often! I just enjoy twirling the bobbin around the hook... it's easy to get carried away.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Shawnny3	November 2nd, 2006, 6:16 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Excellent advice, Gonzo. Of course, it's your book... Another problem I find newcomers often have is that they don't wrap tight enough (which is why they compensate with too many wraps - they secretly know they're not tying tight enough). When Gonzo says "appropriately tensioned" wraps, he is using a term that I think really describes the idea - a solid wrap has tension, but not too much. Learning how tight is tight enough is a subtle and very important skill if you want your flies to last through more than a few fish (and if you're tying Lloyd's realistic stuff, you probably don't want your detailed work falling apart). A good exercise for beginners is to jam-knot their thread on the hook a bunch of times and just see how hard you have to pull on it to break it. Then tie with wraps that approach that limit without quite getting to it. Remember, too, that thread will wear where it touches the hook and where it touches the bobbin (the two points of great stress when tying), so be sure to be continually letting more thread out as you tie to keep the thread from grinding on the bobbin in one spot, and when untying and retying wraps note that each time you do this you weaken the thread at the hook. Also, when tightening a key wrap, hold the hook in your free hand and pull straight down with the thread straight from hook to spool, not kinked at the edge of the bobbin - you would be amazed how much harder you can pull when the bobbin is not putting pressure on the thread at all. Just a few subtleties to keep in mind. It's refreshing to hear Gonzo talk about having good and bad days at the vise. Wow, can I relate - sometimes I step back from a tie and think "Wow, I'm good," and then sometimes it feels like I'm working with two stubs on the ends of my arms. I am nowhere close to the best tier around, but I pride myself on one character trait that makes up for it and then some - I'm patient. Getting it right takes time and practice, and that means not rushing the process. Have fun. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
Bjanzen	November 2nd, 2006, 10:20 pm
Near Chattanooga, TN Posts: 13	Gonzo, Thanks for the wonderful response.....I read it three times already and will read again after tying attempts. I will try again and see if things improve. The other night I was getting quite frustrated and was quite sure I wasn't going to be able to tie nymphs. These tips should get me past the hump.....thanks again. Shawn, Thanks too......I think I may be snapping thread because I don't pull straight down. Also maybe 6/0 with two tight wraps may be better than 8/0 and three or four wraps. Still learning.....but others experiences sure help the process ;-) Barry
GONZO	November 3rd, 2006, 10:24 am
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Barry, I'm happy to help in any way that I can, but I certainly don't have all the answers (even about my own flies and tying). One of the really wonderful things about fly tying is how personal it is. Over time, we all come up with individualized ways to solve the problems that plague our tying; and some of those solutions are truly ingenious. Don't be afraid to experiment and bend a few rules. You may discover better ways to solve these issues. Shawn, Ditto. I've often thought that learning patience was one of the greatest virtues of fishing--perhaps the most underrated lesson of all.
Shawnny3	November 3rd, 2006, 3:05 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	You're welcome, Barry. And Jason, your little post-editing option is awesome. I love it that I can fix mistakes in my posts without having to re-post. Very cool. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
Martinlf	November 5th, 2006, 9:49 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Ditto on the editing option. Thanks Shawn for mentioning it. I'd been looking for a way to do this and had decided there was none. Your post made me look a bit harder. Patience.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Troutnut	November 5th, 2006, 10:55 am
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	Can anyone think of an icon other than scissors that I could put there to make it more obvious? Maybe I should just have the word "edit" instead.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Taxon	November 5th, 2006, 1:09 pm
Site Editor Royse City, TX Posts: 1350	Jason- The scissors icon seems both appropriate and adequate to me. However, I noticed that there seems to be some inconsistency concerning the Forums on which the edit and delete icons appear. For example, on the Specimen Discussion Forum, the edit icon appears, but the delete icon does not. I would suggest that both appear on all Forums on any post where the user logged on is the same user that created the post.
	Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com
Martinlf	November 7th, 2006, 1:42 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	I agree that the icon is fine. I think I just wasn't looking hard enough, Jason, and had grown accustomed to a button external to the post field. Anyone reading the forum thoroughly now should have a hint. I did note that when I deleted an unnecessary comment that the thread still identified me as the last poster. Not that this really matters. And thanks for such a great opportunity to share knowledge and learn. Long ago I had wanted to ask Gonzo some questions about his superb book, but hadn't met him online; I thought I might never get the opportunity. It appears others had some questions as well. I still have a few, but they are getting answered over time, and it helps immensely. Your pictures are a huge help as well, and I'm slowly learning the Latin names. This is, at least for me, one of the best forums on the web.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Shawnny3	November 8th, 2006, 4:01 am
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Yes, the icon is fine in my opinion. Jason, you might think about making some kind of primer statement about forum features on the page people see when they're registering. I think you've done a nice job of outlining forum rules for prospective posters, but perhaps some little navigation and posting hints might be in order (I can't remember - you may already have this). Anyway, the forum is great. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
GONZO	November 8th, 2006, 10:22 am
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Jason- When someone with my high degree of computer illiteracy can negotiate the site, it's probably just fine. I think that we are all extremely grateful that you have created such a great place to discuss our shared obsession. You rock, dude! Peace out. :)
Bjanzen	November 14th, 2006, 6:18 am
Near Chattanooga, TN Posts: 13	Gonzo, Just wanted to post a follow-up. I have been working with my skills and slowly getting better. Part of the problem was head-crowding. I thought I was leaving room, but then I realized that I was pushing material to make room and "humping" the wing case(poly) and making a bulge. The other thing was I was using too much poly (full width on size 14)so I went to 60-75% and it helped along with more tension on poly and thread when tied off. I also looked at the pictures more and realized that some thread head is necessary and I am doing better now. I have also struggeled with the legs but things are improving with some mods of my own. I am sure your methods are fine but I just couldn't get them to work. Maybe you can elaborate if I am doing it in a way that will cause problems later. My method of legs is to add the thread un-coated to the fly. Then I glue it in with Orvis Flex Seal and go a little out on the leg so that it will be sealed out past the dubbing when finished. Then I dub the legs in place. (Do you place dubbing behind the back legs to make them stick out?) Then when the fly is done, I coat the bare thread with CA. The CA seems to harden the un-coated thread better and wick in nicely. I have also had problems getting the bend and the only way I have found is a slightly warmed bodkin to bend the legs. Then I place a little CA on the bend to harden and set the shape. BTW, I have had more success with the Diving nymph. The antron wing seems easier for me than the wing case but I will keep working and learning. That is the beautiful thing about this hobby. Thanks again for the help, Barry
Martinlf	November 14th, 2006, 8:23 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Hi Barry, Gonzo will have to answer the tying questions, but noticing you live in Chattanooga, I have to ask if you have fished the Little Sequatchie or Lost Cove Creek near Sewanee. I grew up in Winchester, went to college in Sewanee, and did just a little trout fishing in my youth. Instead I spent many a happy hour spin fishing for smallmouth in Elk River near Estill Springs. By the way, an old buddy back home has found some very big browns in Elk below Tims Ford Dam. Tight lines!
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

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