Falsifly	November 8th, 2011, 12:34 pm
Hayward, WI. Posts: 661	It’s now The Bugs vs. The Fish. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577016461161542818.html
	Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."

Cutbow	November 8th, 2011, 1:33 pm
Post Falls, Idaho Posts: 38	Stories like this show why all people with common sense have left California taking their brains with them. I'll leave it to others to decide whats left down there. :)
	"Once you catch your first fish on a fly you won't care about any other kind of fishing!"

Entoman	November 8th, 2011, 1:52 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Hi Allan, Only in CA.... (sigh) This isn't really about bugs vs. fish. It's about hijacking environmentalism to further an animal rights issue. Apparently, these confused individuals would prefer that the fish don't exist at all than cruel fly fisherman be allowed to "harass" them. No serious argument is being made about endangering any insects survival as a species. What's being angled for is the prevention of even "catch and release" fishing from the creek. It's nuisance law suits from the delusional like this that jeopardize legitimate environmental concerns as the public grows weary and backlashes against the whole movement during these difficult economic times. This story ran with the news that depressed Sacramento has to come up with 2 billion dollars to upgrade the sewer systems that are dumping poorly treated water into the river... only about $5,000 per citizen. Stories like this don't help the medicine go down. Regards, Kurt
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Oldredbarn	November 8th, 2011, 2:21 pm
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Wow Allan! Thanks for sharing that story with us. It just goes to show just how convoluted everything is here in the good old USA...I know that some of the angling/conservationist groups that I belong to have used the courts to try and get something done or slow development down and such, but is it any wonder we are broke? When we don't get our way, form a committee and pay for another study etc... There are now 7 billion of us folks running around on this planet and not a single one of us can get along with another! Cutbow...Once we get your uncle out-a-there I'll join you along the San Andreas Fault and we can put our backs against the eastern side and push against the western with our feet and maybe it will all finally slip out to sea! :) Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

Falsifly	November 8th, 2011, 4:40 pm
Hayward, WI. Posts: 661	This isn't really about bugs vs. fish. And so it seems. I caught this article which has a different bend in opinion and may cause some controversy, so be forewarned. I wish not to be contributing to the dust-ups we have experienced here in the past and will not take sides or comment further other than to present the following: http://hotair.com/archives/2011/11/08/invertebrates-arent-sexy-megafauna-your-tax-dollars-at-work-for-you/
	Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that."

Jmd123	November 9th, 2011, 2:31 pm
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611	OH GAWD... "There are no known rare bugs in the area, says Bill Somer, a biologist with the California Department of Fish and Game who has been visiting the creek for more than 20 years as part of efforts to restore the Paiute trout. Mr. Somer has overseen the use of rotenone in several other cases around the state where biologists killed non-native fish and reintroduced native trout." And so, the problem is??? We're NOT going to kill off ANY rare insects to save a RARE FISH?? "There are now fewer than 2,000 adult Paiute trout, Mr. Somer says. The fish has been classified as "threatened" on the federal Endangered Species List since 1975." And the Endangered Species Act, FEDERAL law, stipulates that for any species on the list, a recovery plan must be developed and implemented. Sure sounds like they have a recovery plan to me - putting a fish back into it's native and original habitat, and apparently at the expense of nothing else that is native or rare. "...this is what your tax dollars are doing for you." And here we go again, as if BILLIONS have already been spent on this project and it's ramifications (lawsuits, etc.). Realistically speaking, here's something that probably costs LESS THAN ONE PENNY for every American man, woman, and child, yet the anti-government movement in this country has to jump all over it as "wasted tax dollars". As if stopping projects like this would even come near to solving our financial problems, like putting people back to work...Hey, I work in environmental consulting, so issues like this put people LIKE ME back to work!! Of course, the same folks who consider projects like this to be a problem would just like the EPA, ESA, NEPA, Clean Water Act, etc. to just disappear...along with my job. "Would you care even if the Paiute cutthroat trout had not survived?" Gee, I don't know. Should I care if one human being dies unnecessarily, or even a dozen or thousands, when there are 7 BILLION people on this planet?? I suppose if you live in a big city and never go trout fishing (as is obviously true of the person who wrote this article), no, you wouldn't care about the Paiute trout...And if I didn't know that person who lives in that big city and never goes trout fishing, and they were MURDERED for their shoes or wrist watch, then am I SUPPOSED to care and be upset about it??? Gee, I don't know...what's more important, the life of a single human being (many thousands of whom die every day from diseases, starvation, and WAR, yet most of us do NOTHING about it) or the extinction (forever) of an ENTIRE RACE of fish?? Once they're gone, they're gone, yet we can always make more human beings... I would hazard that the human being who wrote the second article is a self-important as. Big wonder that the website it was posted on is called HOT AIR... My apologies if I got overly political or offensive to anyone else on this site, but I am a fervent advocate for the environment - which almost always gets the short end of the stick when it comes to interactions with humanity - and I will never hesitate to call BULLSHT when I see it. Jonathon
	No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...

Entoman	November 9th, 2011, 6:04 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Jonathon - ...but I am a fervent advocate for the environment -... That's good Jonathon. I think we all are (at least on Troutnut). But you must have sped through the article pretty quick, because I think you missed the main point. It wasn't about the government wasting money on the Piute trout or any other legitimate government concern. Nor was it a screed about the governments role in protecting the environment being unnecessary. It was about special interest groups paying politicians to get laws passed requiring action for the good as they see it tied up in the court system by other special interest groups who see the good differently. The interest group organizations make money, lawyers make money, special commissions & bureaucracies make money, consultants make money, the politicians make money - and the worst part is nothing gets done for 20 years except tying up the courts. And we all foot the bill for this. An entire industry has developed to foster these conflicts. We don't win, the trout don't win, and the environment certainly doesn't win as the billions available are used up in nonsense like this instead of actually doing something for the environment. The chronic time wasting as environmental and other problems only get worse and the tremendous amounts of money that also gets wasted is a travesty. The endless studies, arguments and legal pettifoggery are not justified by the "penny a person" argument either, as the money should be spent on its intended purpose - whatever the amount. Besides, the point is bogus because this stuff is going on with thousands and thousands of issues, environmental & otherwise at the local, state and federal levels. Those pennies do add up. It's death by a million cuts and we better get a handle on it because the system is breaking down, in case you haven't noticed. There won't be much protection of the environment going on if we descend into economic collapse and political chaos. Regards, Kurt
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Jmd123	November 9th, 2011, 8:57 pm
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611	Good points, Kurt, can't argue with you there. Litigation has become an industry of it's own and it serves no one but the lawyers, and yes, that's certainly a waste of money, time, and resources. I may have focused on my own personal "hot button" issues, but the second article had a certain flavor of "who cares about the stupid trout" and a distinctly anti-regulatory feel that is undeniable. I sure don't think this is the right way to handle this or any other issue, gotta agree with you on that, but really, there are FAR LARGER wastes of money, time, and resources going on in our government, yet these kind of environmetnal issues always seem to get picked on by the so-called "business" community. Even though I am actually part of this community - I work for a private consulting firm! Not long after I moved up here I discovered a wonderful place called Clark's Marsh, a system of now artificially-maintained wetlands built on a "dead" channel of the lower Au Sable River. There is a sign on the banks explaining how the wetlands were originally constructed by beaver dams, and that somehow the beavers failed to maintain the dams (trapped out? I don't know why) and that they were in danger of collapsing. So, the Forest Service, Michigan Wildlife Conservancy, and Ducks Unlimited got together and built a series of four berms and water-control structures to maintain the wetlands indefinitely, as they had proven to be extremely valuable to numerous species of waterfowl, wading birds, bald eagles, ospreys, various mammals, amphibians, fish, etc. It is a wonderful place to hike, bird-watch, and fish (I have posted numerous pictures of the bass and sunfish I have caught there), and it's only a fourty-five minute hike from my house. Well, some IDIOT felt it necessary to scratch the following into the sign: "THIS IS A LIE - WASTED TAX $$$" Which prompted me to take my keys out of my pocket and proceed to scratch out these words until they were pretty much invisible. I have considered taking the brown paint I use to paint my bass poppers out there to cover up the scratch marks entirely. What I wanna know is, WHO in THIS PART of the world thinks this way??? If you don't live up here for the forests and waters and wildlife, well, YOU'RE IN THE WRONG DAMNED PLACE!!! Go move back to the freaking city if you don't appreciate the surroundings AND the efforts of those who work to preserve it!!! Whenever I see this atttitude, in any way, it sets me off, and I can't really apologize for that. And that attitude is most definitely within the second article - notice that the author didn't make any comments to the effect of, "Isn't there a better and MORE COST EFFECTIVE way of saving the Paiute trout?" Instead, I see, "Who cares???" I DO!! Jonathon
	No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...

Entoman	November 9th, 2011, 10:49 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Jonathon, Well, some IDIOT felt it necessary to scratch the following into the sign: "THIS IS A LIE - WASTED TAX $$$" Yep. We will always have idiots like this with us, from both sides. We just have to avoid giving them any legitimacy by screwing things up so bad that the vast majority with limited amounts of concern are swayed by them. Regards, Kurt
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Strmanglr	November 14th, 2011, 5:24 pm
Posts: 156	This post reminded me of an article I read and I finally remembered what and where. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/trout_main.html Not trying to take any sides here or have any comment on what is more important, the fish or the insect. Just reminded me of it and I thought I would pass it along.

Jmd123	November 15th, 2011, 12:02 am
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611	Great article - thanks for posting the link! Yeah, I do like fishing for brown trout, I have to admit it. But fortunately, where I live now is very rich in brook trout waters too. Although, historically speaking, not even the brookies are supposed to be native around here - these were once the home waters of the Michigan Grayling, now sadly extinct. According to what I have read, brookies were native either only the the Upper Penninsula or from the Gaylord area north. But yes, I am glad I can catch brookies, browns, and rainbows, sometimes right next to each other. But I am also for restoration of native trout species/subspecies wherever and whenever possible too. Much as we may wish for what's gone, we have to enjoy what we have now, and at least we do have plenty of trout streams here in Michigan. Jonathon
	No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...

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