knowing the bug cycle

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Sayfu	October 14th, 2011, 9:26 am
Posts: 560	I fish a lot of soft hackles, and have boxes of them with not a lot of thought in mind regarding emergence cycles at specific times of year accept for the BWO, and PMD's. Many of my lab work thoughts turn out negative, and it is back to the drawing board. Yesterday was quite positive. On Sunday, we had an outstanding emergence of #14 lt. cahills, I will call them. The local fly shop says you can call them pink Alberts, Pale Evening Duns, lt. cahills, Sulphurs, whatever you want not knowing for sure the specific bug. What I did yesterday with the knowledge that these bugs become adults well below the surface was to tie up some #14 light bodied, (a sparkly lt pink body) lt tails, a sparkly synthetic underwing for the folded wings, and a lt. partridge hackle over the winging material. There were but a few adults showing compared to Sunday so we swung these soft hackles off the gravel bars with great results! Some slamming hard strikes from big West Slope Cutthroat, and a few brown trout. The adults were two tailed mayflies. By the results, I had the life cycle right!!

Oldredbarn	October 14th, 2011, 10:55 am
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	http://www.flyfishusa.com/fly-tying/fly-patterns/quill-body-2.htm Sayfu, Not sure this link will work, but scroll down to see a nice Hair-winged dun by Renee Harrop...If it works. Is the name Epeorus albertea correct? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3z5KoKbgq4 Craig Mathews tying an improved sparkle dun... Any way...You caught fish and they responded to what you were doing...You will have to ask them if they were actually hitting the "Pink Albert's" or taking your wet fly as something else...They will probably remain mute...Sorry! :) Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

Sayfu	October 14th, 2011, 11:05 am
Posts: 560	The reason I am now calling them cahills, and not Epeorus Albertae is the fact they are around in the middle of Oct. They are a late in the day Mayfly, and late in the Summer May, but I expect them to be gone by now, but we have not had a freeze, and I am probably wrong,... they are what we call Pink Alberts, and Epeorus...two tailed anyway, and they do come off in deeper, faster water. We'd cast, mend, follow with the rod, and get slamming strikes on the bottom arc swing...sometimes on a twitch retrieve..used 3x tippets to prevent breaking off.

Oldredbarn	October 14th, 2011, 12:02 pm
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Sayfu, Did you get a really good look at the bug? I have nosed around some western hatch charts and you are correct and the Epeorus look like they peter out in August sometime...We have a "Fall" Baetis (Baetis heimalis now B brunneicolor) that can run 14-16, but I can't swear to two or three tails...Maybe you have its cousin out that way...It is October after all... I guess a wiser man than I would say, "You catching fish? Don't over think it, and have at it man!"...:) Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

Sayfu	October 14th, 2011, 1:32 pm
Posts: 560	I didn't get a good look..just the same size, and a fast water emerger, and two tailed, and a later in the day emerger. I often fail to investigate well enough when I have a rod in my hand. I have trouble even stopping to have lunch often stripping in line with a sandwich in my hand! The situation yesterday was very slow fishing early on, and then when the fishing turned on I just wanted to thrash the water!

Entoman	October 14th, 2011, 4:11 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Based on the info you provided Sayfu, they are most likely Ginger Quills (Ecdyonurus simplicioides). It's pretty late for E. albertae. Spence - The baetids have two tails as well, but the big boy that hatches out here in the Fall (B. tricaudatus) is a dark brown or brownish olive fly and they don't emerge sub-surface. Regards, Kurt
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Sayfu	October 15th, 2011, 11:41 am
Posts: 560	Oldredbarn & Entoman, I called Island Park today, and talked to Chris Lawson, Mike Lawson's son at Henry's Fork Anglers. From the description I gave him, and not many keys because I spent little time studying any of them, he said he would bet money they were what we refer to as Pink Alberts...Epeorus Albertae. The size, and color was right, two tailed, and coming off in faster, somewhat deeper water than PMD's come of in. And the time of day was right. We had exceptionally high water on the SF this year, and still have 3 times the water we have had at this time of year in normal years. Chris said all the bugs were pushed way back on the SF. I still have not seen the Fall BWO's coming off very good, and few fish up on them. I will put in early this week and make a float below where we had the Pale Evening Duns, or whatever you want to call them, coming off recently.

GONZO	October 15th, 2011, 3:21 pm
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PA Posts: 1681	Sayfu, I'm sure Chris Lawson knows that water and the bugs very well. The fishing that you describe is very much like what we have here in the East to Epeorus vitreus (Yellow Quill, Pink Lady). Although the name Pink Albert refers to the color of egg-laden female Epeorus albertae, anglers (and hatch charts) might call several of the Epeorus species "Pink Alberts." Edmunds and Allen (1964) report that gravid females of all of the most common or widespread western Epeorus species (longimanus, albertae, and deceptivus) can have a pinkish or rose-colored hue to the abdomen. In a more general sense, it's possible that what many anglers think of as the "Pink Albert" emergence could involve more than one species over a fairly long time. Multiple species and seasonal water/weather conditions aside, it's not at all unusual for some Epeorus species to have an extended emergence that goes well beyond what is shown in hatch charts. For example, the emergence period of our early season Quill Gordon (Epeorus pleuralis) is often shown in hatch charts as a short period in April or early May, but it can continue to emerge for a month or more beyond that in cold streams. Likewise, Epeorus vitreus is often shown as a late May or June emerger on hatch charts, but it can continue well into August on many streams, and I have fished good hatches into mid-September on the West Branch of the Delaware, where they often hatch alongside the Little Yellow Quill (Leucrocuta spp.). Congrats on matching the "bug cycle." That's often the only important part of making "entomology" pay off in practical fishing--the specific identity stuff is just fodder for bug geeky anglers to chew on when they can't be on the stream catching fish. ;)

Sayfu	October 15th, 2011, 7:48 pm
Posts: 560	Matching the cycle was very satisfying, based on an understanding of what I thought was Epeorus, and not just a hope and a prayer which I often take with me to the water.

Entoman	October 17th, 2011, 8:55 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Hi Sayfu, Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but I've been out of town for several days in important business meetings with Mr. Trout.:) Sounds like you have the species worked out. Since the difference between E. albertae and Ecdyonurus simplicioides from a fishing standpoint is probably unimportant (they both look very close and emerge in the same fashion) it certainly isn't vital for fishing success to know which one it actually is. Just for grins though, if you would like to know for sure which one it is there are a couple of things you could look for: The easiest are nymphs - Check the cobble for ripe flat-headed nymphs. There wing-cases will be darker (though not so much as baetis and PMD's) and their undersides will take on the bright colors of the dun (the ones not quite ready, though lighter underneath as well, will usually be duller). Straight cream, or with a yellowish or pinkish cast are the most common. Two tails - albertae, Three tails - simplicioides. The duns are more difficult as both are two-tailed pale flies. From a behavioral standpoint, it's been my experience that generally Epeorus species will spend a little time on the water making the duns often worth imitating. on the other hand, Ecdyonurus (prev. Heptagenia) species get off pretty quick and fishing the dry can often be pretty tough. You can also find Epeorus hatching in calmer water which is rarely the case with Ecdyonurus (which may explain why they want to get off the water so fast). As far as comparing their appearance goes: Size - Both are about the same Wings - albertae wings are plain. The wings of simplicioides can be as well though they are usually lighter. They can also have a very pale blotchy appearance or even more common dark crossveins giving them a slight (pale) window screen look. If they do, they are easy to tell from the alberts. I'm not so lucky in my neck of the woods. Eyes - Epeorus are usually kind of a Dk. blue gray, the males are large and look to touch each other. simplicioides on the other hand are usually almost black, and separated in the males. Separation is more important as color may be "too close to call." Legs - Epeorus will be similar in color to the top of the body and usually have a single little dot (not band) in the middle of its thigh on the front leg. The legs on simplicioides will usually be noticeably lighter than the top of the body and will be plain or with a very feint banding. Bodies - To the naked eye, this can also be "too close to call". Both can be cream, pale yellow, or even "pink". One observation though is that I've seen difference in the male alberts that can be fairly dramatic (almost grayish), while the western lt. cahills, ginger quills, pale evening duns, yellow quills, pink lady's (whatever we decide to call them), (simplicioides) are usually the same color in both sexes with the orange or pink highlights of the males most often in the thorax area rather than the abdomen. Timing - The alberts are an earlier hatch. I agree though, this isn't conclusive, especially this year. I saw some critters this weekend that shouldn't have been there according to the hatch charts. They must not read.:) I'm not all that familiar with the S. Fork, but both Schwiebert (Nymphs) and Arbona (Mayflies the Angler and the Trout) report good Fall hatches of simplicioides specifically on the South Fork, so I wouldn't discount the possibility. Regards, Kurt
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Jesse	October 17th, 2011, 11:56 pm
Posts: 378	swinging the e ole flies is definitely a favorite technique of mine!
	Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com

Sayfu	October 18th, 2011, 9:34 am
Posts: 560	Jesse..Me to !! The strikes can be shocking, and every fish I hook I think is big because of the take on the swing generally. Entomen..thanks for the very comprehensive return post. What is interesting is our local flyshop that is regarded to be on top of things, and differentiating themselves from the big box stores with accurate info, discouraged my response for wanting to know the identity of the bug. Their guide, that works there said all that was necessary was to call them PMD's, and that is what they do, classify all of the pale mayflies coming off during the summer as PMD's. I went in and discussed it with them yesterday. I told them that to know that mayfly was a clinger, and not a crawler, and it came off in deeper water as an adult, and not emerging at the surface as a nymph made the difference in what emerger fly I used...totally. They often advertise the need to come in and buy their life cycle patterns for the PMD's, but then don't see it necessary to identify the bigger Pink Alberts,(Epeorus Albertae) and that life cycle. They told me, get the size, and color right, and you don't have to know the latin name, but in this case it made a big difference. Nothing was happening on the surface, and it would have been very few fish for the day, if not fishing a sunkin Dun by guessing it was Epeorus (soft hackle emerger) subsurface.

Entoman	October 18th, 2011, 12:09 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	They told me, get the size, and color right, and you don't have to know the latin name, but in this case it made a big difference. That's absolutely right. Knowing the difference between families and genera can often be your edge, especially on some waters where the fish can get very picky. The other day, a guide I've seen on the river a few times floated through while I had a nice fish on. He commented that though the baetids had been hot and heavy on the river all morning, they only cought a few on nymphs and the dry fly fishing had been pretty tough. Judging by the look on his client's face, there was full agreement on that point in the boat. After exchanging the usual comments about how tough fish can get after being hammered all season and the effects of micro-drag, the question of what I was using came up. When I responded that I had done pretty well on soft-hackles, he replied back that he hadn't seen many caddis upriver. It wasn't the time or place for an entomology discussion, so I just nodded as he floated away...
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Adirman	October 18th, 2011, 5:50 pm
Monticello, NY Posts: 505	But Arent soft hackles pretty much an emerging caddis representation? That's what I've been told anyway and what I usually use them for.

Sayfu	October 18th, 2011, 10:15 pm
Posts: 560	Any bug leaving the bottom as a nymph, and struggling to reach the surface is susceptible to a soft hackle of the right size, color. Works well for a caddis emergence, but also for mayflies. Worked exceptionally well again today for the Epeorus mayflies that continue to come of well on the SF of the Snake. I enjoy the long drifts I get with soft hackles the fly going first ahead of leader and line. The "swings the thing", and the "tug's the drug."

Oldredbarn	October 19th, 2011, 10:37 am
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Sayfu, If you want to earn your "junior scientist" badge from TroutNut...:) Maybe take a camera with you next time...A good photo will really set off the "Bug Boys" and help in the id...These new little digitals all seem to have a macro setting and can take some incredible shots... I love mine. I still haven't quite worked out taking a good closeup of the flies I have tied...Somehow everything is wrong once I look at the photo...It may be the lighting I use for my fly table or too much going on in the background...I'm not sure...When I look at the finished photo the colors are way off...It's either that or I'm color blind...:) Get us some bug pics, man! :) Maybe some fish in some...I know this is difficult when the fishing is hot and trout are rising, but hey... Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

Sayfu	October 19th, 2011, 10:52 am
Posts: 560	I am going to have to get into it. We have taken so many bad fish pictures in the past. Having to tell someone "Believe me, there is an eagle up in that tree" got old. My wife has a digital, and I hoped she would take off with that aspect of our fishing, but she is as tech deficit as I am. But we will have to look into it. Those Pink Alberts coming off are beauties, and we are having a great week of nice Fall weather to watch them come off.

Oldredbarn	October 19th, 2011, 11:17 am
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	I am going to have to get into it. We have taken so many bad fish pictures in the past. Having to tell someone "Believe me, there is an eagle up in that tree" got old. Been there...Done that! I am a "week-end" birder and have tried, on and off,to pull off some nice shots of birds...Some have worked...Some not. Some problems I have is probably an equipment problem...Good telephotos or zooms and a good tripod for starters...I have an old F3 and some nice lens' for it, but it isn't digital. I have taken some of the old photos and scanned them and they are nice, but I know of what you speak...They don't look at all like those shots taken by the pros... My best shot ever was totally by accident. I was staying at Gates' Lodge on the Au Sable and they have a couple bird feeders outside of the dining room windows...I spotted a Red-Breasted Nut-Hatch coming down a limb in a tree out there...My battery in my camera was dead and I switched the camera to completely manual and forced the camera to take a picture...It came out great! Go figure... Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

Entoman	October 19th, 2011, 1:52 pm
Northern CA & ID Posts: 2604	Hi A-man, But Arent soft hackles pretty much an emerging caddis representation? That's what I've been told anyway and what I usually use them for. Actually, the original Soft Hackles (aka North Country Spiders) were used mostly for baetid hatches in the border country between England and Scotland to imitate dead and dying critters "in the wash". They were often fished upstream with a dead drift. What went unreported at the time (we are talking a long time ago) is that the imagos of many baetid species crawl underwater to lay their eggs and then release their hold to drift in the current, sometimes in unbelievable numbers. At these times, Soft-hackles can often be very useful. Technically, the "Soft Hackle" I prefer for spring creeks is really a Wingless Wet Fly and I fish it alone. For baetid activity on freestones the traditional British rig consisting of the Spider combo Waterhen Bloa and the Snipe & purple is often hard to beat. Soft Hackles are also useful for the heptageniids and some of the the Drunella species of ephemerellids. The Partridge & Hare's Ear is popular on the West Coast for imitating emerging March Browns. The underrated fuzzy wingless wets of the great James Leisenring are also excellent for this purpose. The caddis connection in this country comes primarily from the writings of Schwiebert and Nemes who promoted their use for this purpose. A simple pattern consisting of a dubbed antron body with a gamehen or partridge hackle is a pretty effective fly for swinging in front of slashing trout during caddis activity. I like to thorax weight them to keep them from pulling to the surface on the swing. Regards, Kurt
	"It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman

Adirman	October 19th, 2011, 6:30 pm
Monticello, NY Posts: 505	Entoman; Thanks buddy, good info from you as always!! Your friend, Adirman

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