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> > Ethics of fishing with egg patterns
| Sundula | October 9th, 2006, 4:31 pm | |
| Littleton, Colorado Posts: 35 | I was just wandering about how some of you felt about fly fishing with egg patterns. I get that it is a natural food scource this time of year for browns and in the spring for rainbows, but it just feels "dirty". There are some that I talk to that won't even consider an egg pattern but will fish with an orange "micro scud" to trout feeding on eggs wich makes no sence to me. I have heard that trout are more apt to "gutting" the egg more so than other patterns. Hearing this makes me more hesitant to useing this pattern because I only keep at most 1 fish a year, and I feel bad if I even foul hook one, or play it too long. I don't know if I can bring myself to it. Am I an eliteist, maybe. Do I want to catch trout in the fall and spring, you bet! Is the egg the only pattern that will bring beautiful trout to hand this time of year, no. I am interested in your opinions. I guess my main concern is the well being of the trout, and my dignity when I discuss the pattern used to bring a trout in. "Wow that is a nice trout what did you catch him on?" "...an egg" "You fish Power Bait with a fly rod?" "No I tied it with Glo Bug yarn" "Oh". I don't know,I'm in a moral dilema. To drift an egg or not, that is the question. | |
| Taxon | October 9th, 2006, 5:01 pm | |
 Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | Sundula- How about drifting an Egg Sucking Leech. No way you can be blamed for what the leech is feeding on. | |
| Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Troutnut | October 9th, 2006, 6:11 pm | |
 Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | I've got no problem at all with egg patterns, San Juan Worms, or other flies which imitate natural trout prey other than mayfly duns. If anything, fly anglers should be doing a lot more unconvential imitation, although I would apply it mostly to insects like giant water bugs and hellgrammites. I don't think this should be regarded as a question of ethics, because ethically it's obvious that there's nothing wrong with "hatch"-matching" a non-insect food source. I would say it's more of an aesthetic question, and that one's open to personal preference. | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| GONZO | October 9th, 2006, 10:03 pm | |
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PAPosts: 1681 | Well, I loved Roger's answer and I agree with Jason's. If you really see it as a moral issue, there's only one solution--stop fishing in the spring and fall. After all, you may be blameless but those about you will be radiating sinfulness. And the immoral fish will be encouraging the wanton depravity by craving the unholy morsels. :) Seriously, Sundula, if it bothers you, don't do it. Usually fish will only swallow an egg pattern if you let them, so pay attention and don't drift off. (If you want to take in the scenery, get your line out of the water.) If you do get into a situation where the fish really are taking deeply, quit. I've had this happen with dry flies during a hatch about as often as with eggs, and you either have to leave the fish alone or try to fish something less convincing. The attitude that some anglers develop about egg flies is curious, though. Some of the same folks who decry any dry fly or nymph that can't be tied in five minutes with one hand will assail an egg pattern as a "junk" fly. They extoll impressionism and simplicity, yet when a fly (like a Glo Bug) presents those qualities in spades, it is somehow unworthy. As a tier who is sometimes accused of making things too complicated, I am struck by the irony. C'est la vie! There's nothing wrong with setting your own code and fishing by it. It's really one of the nice things about fly fishing. But there is something wrong with expecting everyone else to follow suit. | |
| Taxon | October 9th, 2006, 10:59 pm | |
Site Editor Royse City, TXPosts: 1350 | There's nothing wrong with setting your own code and fishing by it. It's really one of the nice things about fly fishing. But there is something wrong with expecting everyone else to follow suit. Very good, Gonzo. The world would be better place were the merit of this principle appreciated well beyond flyfishing. | |
| Best regards, Roger Rohrbeck www.FlyfishingEntomology.com | ||
| Troutnut | October 10th, 2006, 7:58 am | |
Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | Some of the same folks who decry any dry fly or nymph that can't be tied in five minutes with one hand will assail an egg pattern as a "junk" fly. They extoll impressionism and simplicity, yet when a fly (like a Glo Bug) presents those qualities in spades, it is somehow unworthy. Great point! | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| Sundula | October 10th, 2006, 9:20 am | |
| Littleton, Colorado Posts: 35 | I understand the aesthetic point. I have never fished an egg pattern or tied one. After soul searching and the input from everyone here and at my local fly shop I tied up several eggs. I did not mean to come off as a stuck up a#$ h*&%@, I just wanted input on the general perception. I love the sport and respect it, I have just never attempted to present patterns that were not imitations of aquatic ivertabrates. I am looking forward to expanding my aersenal. Thank you all for your input and I have moved past my misconception. I do need advice on patterns though. What are the best colors and sizes to represent brown trout eggs and rainbow trout eggs, also I would like to know about presentation, do I keep them as close to the bottom as I can? Or do the trout feed on them in different levels of the water table like nymphs? Also I was wondering if it would be a good idea to drop a nymph behind the egg, and fish it like a standard two fly rig. | |
| GONZO | October 10th, 2006, 10:28 am | |
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PAPosts: 1681 | Sundula- No problem--no offense was taken and none was intended. Soul searching is a good thing. Remember, it's your call, and your conscience should guide your actions. Brown trout eggs tend to be golden yellow, while rainbow eggs often have an orangish or reddish hue. Both are about 5-6mm. Brook trout eggs (in case you're interested) are usually paler (kind of a creamy yellow). Old (unfertilized) eggs develop an opaque whitish color. You definitely want to keep the egg dead-drifting near the bottom. If you're using Glo Bug yarn, the buoyancy of the yarn tends to work against this. Some tiers add a bead, but I prefer to add weight to the leader fairly close to the fly (about 6-8"), or use a less buoyant material. (You'll still need weight, but it can be placed a little farther up the leader.) As for adding a nymph dropper, it's up to you. It may be a way to sort out the trout's preference on a given day, but I prefer to fish a single fly whenever possible. Two flies always complicate landing and release, and may increase the incidence of foul-hooking. To alleviate any possibility of the fish swallowing the fly, you definitely want to use some sort of indicator when not sight-fishing. In either situation, give Zen-like attention to your drift at all times. Avoid disturbing redds and try not to fish to actively spawning fish. (You're looking for the fish that are eating eggs, not laying them.) One last thought on Jason's point about unconventional imitation. I have heard a few anglers express a form of "aquatic invertebrate" purism (which would preclude imitating fish eggs, but not, I assume, insect eggs). That would also seem to eliminate terrestrials, so let's say "invertebrates only." But then you couldn't fish streamers, which imitate aquatic vertebrates. And, without getting into the whole when-does-life-begin debate, aquatic vertebrates are what fish eggs become. Do you see where I'm going? There's nothing wrong with drawing a line somewhere if you like, but getting all exercised about exactly where that line is drawn seems a little silly. Personally, if a trout eats it, I've probably tried to imitate it at one time or another. When I was a kid, I watched a fine trout eating mulberries that had dropped to the water. I went home and tied my best attempt at a mulberry imitation (sort of a purple Glo Bug, except it was tied with deer-hair). Later, I caught the trout. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong--in fact, I was pretty proud of myself. Of course, this was violating all of the aquatic/invetebrate/vertebrate rules. I don't know. What do you think? Is imitating vegetable matter taboo? :) | |
| JAD | October 10th, 2006, 4:06 pm | |
 Posts: 362 | I agree with the rest, if it's legal and it fell good do it. Also if this helps-----(If we carry purism to it's logical conclusion, to do it right you'd have to live naked in a cave, hit your trout on the head with rocks, and eat them raw. But, so as not to violate another essential element of the fly-fishing tradition, the rocks would have to be quarried in England and cost $300 each." ) Warm Regards Caddisman-1--JaD | |
| They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times, | ||
| Sundula | October 10th, 2006, 7:07 pm | |
| Littleton, Colorado Posts: 35 | I just got done tying up 2 dozen egg patterns and am drifting them sometime time this week. -Tight Lines to All and to All a Good Fight | |
| Troutnut | October 10th, 2006, 7:52 pm | |
Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | Gonzo, I can't seem to find that mulberry pattern in your book! What page is it on? :) | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| Zzcanton | October 10th, 2006, 9:34 pm | |
| Fairbanks AK Posts: 5 | i love egg patterns. thats all i use here in alaska during the time when the salmon are spawning. the trout will be directly behind the salmon and waiting for their dinner to pop out. i started using beads this year as well. there is another argument for you all. is bead fishing "fly fishing"? all i know is that it works and works well. you either have to let you bead free float between your hook and weight or peg it 2" above the hook. i find that with it pegged, you hook the trout on the outside of the mouth and there is no damage to the fish at all. if you peg it farther up the hook you will hook the fish in the eye. i have never had a trout swallow the hook like this. fishing with a glo-bug, sometimes the trout will take it deeper though. i also tie a tiny bit of rabbit hair on my hook to conceal it. it looks like salmon flesh or perhaps some milt. it works great though, and i dont care if some say it isn't "fly fishing" all i know is i'll catch more fish like that than the purists. | |
| Upnorth2 | October 11th, 2006, 3:54 am | |
| Wisconsin Posts: 62 | Several ways to get away from Glo-Bug density. I use lead wire to weight the hook or heavy copper (just torn an electrical motor down). I take and form a loop and take a piece of yarn and spread it in the loop. Twist it and keep pulling it straight, wind on hook and trim if you want. You can add different colors front, middle or back. The other way it to hollow loops from dubbed over lead wire. This take the bulk of of yarn away. Add a single piece of white rubber for affect also if you want. Sucker spawn flies are also good. You can add weight to them as well. Beads just do not get the fly down enough in high water. Worked in Washington state and here as well. | |
| Troutnut | October 11th, 2006, 8:45 am | |
Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | Don't overlook other types of egg flies, too. The Estaz Egg is really popular on the Lake Ontario tribs in NY, and I like it at least as well as the single glo-bug. It's easier to tie and it has more of the translucent look of a real egg. I also fish a lot with "double glo-bugs." I tie one by cinching an improved clinch knot in 3X mono around a few strands of yarn. Then I tie the mono onto the hook so the hookless egg is about 2/3 of an inch back, and tie a regular egg on the hook over the mono. So I have a pair of little close-together glo-bugs. This works better for me on king salmon than a single egg, although my testing has been limited to a few trips. It's probably not a good idea for much smaller fish, because they might grab the wrong egg instead of both in one gulp. | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| GONZO | October 11th, 2006, 12:34 pm | |
Site Editor "Bear Swamp," PAPosts: 1681 | Jason- The Mulberry Bug is simple--just spin purple deer-hair on a hook and trim to shape. I'd consider writing Flies for Vegetarian Trout, but that trout was the only one I've encountered feeding on mulberries. I've watched fallfish and carp feed on them, but I don't go out of my way to catch either species. (I manage to catch enough of them without trying.) Unfortunately, both the trout stream and the mulberry bush have been destroyed by a housing development, and I don't fish there anymore. I am reminded, however, that Gary LaFontaine once designed a fly to imitate a kernel of corn. If I'm remembering correctly, he used it to catch kokanee in a lake. At least I'm not the only one who considers imitating vegetable matter fair game! | |
| Troutnut | October 11th, 2006, 12:37 pm | |
Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | I'd be careful about imitating berries, though... the last thing I need is a bear on the end of my line! | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| Upnorth2 | October 11th, 2006, 2:18 pm | |
| Wisconsin Posts: 62 | For kings I never got that technical with glo bug yarn. I used something similar to what you have. Had lots of big kings on the Skykomish in front of the house. Private beach, "The King Hole." Even weighted, the fly would often not go down enough, so I used SA steelhead taper, 10-weight to 12-weight rod. So much new materials out there now and creative people so one fly is not it anymore. | |
| West | October 12th, 2006, 2:03 pm | |
 Posts: 46 | One of my favorite steelhead egg flies is the "sucker spawn" fly which was mentioned by Upnorth2. I tie them with about four humps of angora egg yarn (I think that's what it's called) and a little krystal flash out the back: kind of the standard type. For some reason I feel better fishing with them than with standard glo bugs. They're easy enough to tie, but I feel that the're more "fly-like," if that was a word. I like to fish them in the shallow riffles. They work great on Lake Superior tribs! | |
| West http://pleasantly-obsessed.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Upnorth2 | October 12th, 2006, 2:27 pm | |
| Wisconsin Posts: 62 | West how are you? Few pinks around yes? I've basically switched over to them for the most part now. Good fly. How's the fishing for you this year so far? | |
| West | October 13th, 2006, 1:16 pm | |
Posts: 46 | The fishing for me has been very limited. I had a couple of knee surgeries, so I haven't been on the water too much. My friends, however have been doing good on the Bayfield County tribs for salmon. Within a couple weeks, I'll hopefully be on the stream. right now I'm pretty much limited to the fly tying bench! | |
| West http://pleasantly-obsessed.blogspot.com/ | ||
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