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| Motrout | June 12th, 2011, 5:36 pm | |
 | On some of the larger, faster moving Ozark streams that I fish, I am starting to see and hear about quite a few people Czech nymphing. I am familiar with the technique in the theoretical sense (I have read quite a bit about it and tried it a couple times, but never actually made a determined enough effort to do what it takes to be successful at it.) As of now I do almost all of my nymph fishing in the conventional manner: either fishing them under an indicator or an attractor dry. My question is do you think it is worth the time, effort, and practice that it would take to really learn the method? I am always up for learning something new (that's half the fun with fly fishing or anything else) but I guess I'm just asking, is this just sort of a fad, or is it a technique I should really become comfortable with? | |
| "I don't know what fly fishing teaches us, but I think it's something we need to know."-John Gierach http://fishingintheozarks.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Adirman | June 12th, 2011, 6:28 pm | |
 Posts: 505 | Motrout; It definitely is worth your time!! My guess is that the way that you already nymph fish (w/ a dry/indicator)is pretty close anyway. Just keep your casts short and keep your rod slightly ahead of your flies on the drift so that you can see/feel the hook set when it comes!! | |
| Oldredbarn | June 13th, 2011, 11:02 am | |
 Posts: 2608 | My question is do you think it is worth the time, effort, and practice that it would take to really learn the method? It seems you have asked & answered here...I agree with Adirman...Being a well rounded angler calls for always expanding your knowledge base... I walked a nice stretch of river that I'd never fished before my last time up to the Au Sable in May...The so-called "Holy Water" runs from Burton's Landing to Wakeley Bridge on the Mainstream...I had never made it up to the beginning part at Burtons. I was staying at a lodge just downstream a ways and decided to have someone drop me off and I fished down to where I was staying. This was a few hour hike for someone fishing at a fair clip. It took me several hours. Each stretch had it's own character and really called for a different technique for each. One doesn't have to do this, but there were wonderful little riffles that a good nymph fisher could of spent all day. Dark overhung deep bends with nice fish feeding on the outside bend. Deep holes where some larger fish might feel safe lying on the bottom, a good place to try your Czech nymphing style... It is a good feeling, in my opinion, to approach a piece of water, analyze it, plan a strategy, and have your efforts pay off with some hooked fish. It's the Paul Robert's approach :). On the other hand a match-the-hatcher like myself also understands the idea of matching more than just the hatch but what and where they are feeding. During a heavy hatch not all the fish are feeding up-top...These pre-emerging nymphs are very active down below and a nice fish can get very fat feeding on bugs that never make it to the surface because he's eating them...Schwiebert, Swisher & Richards, and many, many more angler/writers have written about fishing a nymph right through the hatch to great success...Re-read the short but sweet posts of Tim Neil from Grayling...He's hooked his share, my share, your share, and just about all of our share of brookies...I think it would be a treat to peek in his fly boxes...The flies he sells to the general public are great, but what does he tie on for his own fishing??? Bottom line...No need to ever limit yourself...This style of nymphing maybe somewhat of a "fad" here but it was first developed and used to put trout in frying pans...In Europe there are places that hire professional anglers to provide fish for restaurants...These are the guys that came up with this style of fishing...It's not necessarily for "sport" and had a more utilitarian reason behind it's development, yanking good fish out from deep holes ASAP. My fishing mentor has passed 60 this past year and he said to me lately..."I just want to fish my way and I don't care what everyone else is doing...I want to approach the fish the way I want to approach the fish. Everyone else can beat the water to a froth for all I care." Fly fishing, I think, appeals to folks who bore quickly and would go nuts sitting on the bank waiting for a bobber to get tugged under...The game is what pulls us obsessives in and a little success playing the game keeps us coming back...Give me a wild, difficult to catch fish any damn day of the week... Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | June 24th, 2011, 12:46 am | |
 Posts: 2604 | MoTrout - Depends on the water you prefer to fish. Czech nymphing has been all the rage for freestones out here for a decade or more and a great technique for the high water we're all experiencing this year. Though the typical "Czech nymph" is a caddis larva imitation, heavy large mayfly nymphs and stones are also effective used this way. This is one of the few 'specialized" techniques I use on our fast freestones because it doesn't break my rule of avoiding specialized tackle (other than a long rod (9 ft.) which I prefer anyway) so I can easily convert to using a dry fly or shallow nymphs. I don't employ rod caddies nor will I be one for somebody else.:) Changing leaders is easy. This method for runs and chutes, "High sticking" for the pocket water are my deep nymphing preferences - though there is another I like during Salmon Fly season, and no way to stay away from indicators and splitshot with the small stuff. Besides leader construction, the main difference between the two is that Western high stickers follow the fly while The Euro poacher method leads the fly. Both are close in, though with the poacher method its a sin to have more than 3 or 4 ft. of fly line out. Neither can be called true fly casting and are really techniques the old time bait fishermen employed before the invention of spinning gear ((if trout were ever considered an invasive species, those old guys (long dead) would be the ones to employ to irradicate them))! ..."I just want to fish my way and I don't care what everyone else is doing...I want to approach the fish the way I want to approach the fish..." Thats pretty much the way I feel Spence, which is why on my own time I prefer to fish water where the "gentler methods" are more effective. Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Adirman | June 24th, 2011, 10:23 am | |
Posts: 505 | Entoman, I'm interested in the info in your post about the Western high-stickers as to how that style is similar to Czech nymphing but has its differnces. 1 thing you said was that the Western guys follow the flies rather than have the rod slightly ahead like the Czech approcah. Why is that? Also, are there any other differences you can think of? Thanks!! Adirman | |
| Entoman | June 24th, 2011, 1:36 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | High Sticking uses heavily weighted flies and/or split shot on a more traditional tapered leader with much heavier tippet. Casts are made upstream (or the angle required by the particular water) and the flies are followed with the rod tip as the nymphs work their way around boulders and other structures. The rod is held high with as much line off the water as possible. Because of all the conflicting currents in a rock garden, the flies seem to keep in the "hot spot" better. Not as sensitive as the poacher method, but the takes are usually strong enough as the fish turn pretty quick to get back to their lies in this water type. The Euro poacher method seems to work better for me when the water fished is a little more linear in flow with less structure allowing the lighter weighted flies time to get to depth and be lead without pulling them off course. Also seems to work best in water from knee to waist deep of more moderate flow. It's also easier to get away with the lighter tippet (actually the whole rod length leader is tippet) the method requires in this type of water - runs, chutes, edges, etc. Leading big hooks on very light tippet in the "gardens" will lead to a lot of lost fish and flies in snags. Conceptually, think of high sticking as fishing spots while Czech Nymphing fishes a zone. To fish properly, the former counts on weight, the latter on reduced resistance. Tip - Take a large hair curler with you. You know the velcro type? The one I use is almost 3" in diameter. Why? To wrap setups around for quick change of method as you work your way upstream through different water types. Hook the fly(s) into the velco and wrap on the leader. hold the butt in place with a clip. To change set ups while fishing simply blood knot the butt of one to the leader connector on your flyline, unwrap it and you're ready to go. I'll sometimes have as many as three or four setups ready to go this way. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Adirman | June 25th, 2011, 7:00 am | |
Posts: 505 | Entoman; Thanks for the input on this; I guess when I go to the store to purchase some hair curlers, especially w/ my fly fishing gear in tow, I'll get some strange looks, but so be it!! So, you have prerigged high sticking leaders w/flies already tied on as well as Czech leaders w/ flies that you wrap on the hair curlers and are ready to go? Thanks again, Adirman | |
| Jesse | June 25th, 2011, 7:16 pm | |
 | The art of fly fishing isnt' necessarily about making a beautiful, tight looped cast to a trout feeding 30ft away. Fly fishing isn't really at all about how great the cast is, how far or how tight. Its about stalking the fish. Its about hunting that fish and putting yourself into a position to get as close to that fish as you can, and do whatever it takes to catch that fish. To many people care about 'way to expensive' rods that can eject a fly a mile long to reach fish. its not about that. My point of this i guess is to say that Czech nymphing is great because it requires a more closeness to the species that we love to hunt. And its effective, very effective. | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Jesse | June 25th, 2011, 7:19 pm | |
| I love the casting aspect of fly fishing don't get me wrong, and every single other aspect that it involves. And its very important to be good at all aspects of the art to be a truly great fly fisherman. But there is still nothing than getting as close to you can to that fish and really seeing him before you tight line him ha! I just wanted to clarify my previous statement a little bit. | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| PaulRoberts | June 26th, 2011, 9:41 am | |
 Posts: 1776 | Agree with Jesse wholeheartedly. It's all great and each technique has its own skill requirements. It's really not easy to catch trout consistently on fly tackle, making the ability to do so all the more satisfying. | |
| Entoman | June 27th, 2011, 3:35 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Guys - Couldn't agree more. (with the exception of "feeding eggs" into the resparation patterns of stale spawners or steelhead). Though the above methods are not "fly casting" in the classical sense, they are certainly fly fishing. Nothing beats drifting a dry or nymph to visible fish in close. In my opinion, it is the epitomy of the anglers art. To avoid confusion though, the above methods are typically blind, as the water they are used in usually precludes the visual aspect. Adirman - So, you have prerigged high sticking leaders w/flies already tied on as well as Czech leaders w/ flies that you wrap on the hair curlers and are ready to go? Yes. and indicator rigs as well. Heck, sometimes even a streamer rig! Different water types often require different flies and methods. A lot of anglers wanting to avoid the pain of constantly re-rigging skip the water types that don't fit the method they happen to be using. Until this solution came along I did as well. It's as easy as changing flies. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Oldredbarn | June 27th, 2011, 5:26 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | Couldn't agree more. (with the exception of "feeding eggs" into the resparation patterns of stale spawners or steelhead). Kurt, I hope folks read and re-read this and I hope it doesn't just slip us by...Being from the "mid-west" I understand exactly what you are saying here in terms of having a fish move to your presentation or having the line float just high enough to basically foul-hook the fish...The "feeding eggs" you alluded to or even "feeding" nymphs. and do whatever it takes to catch that fish I'm not so sure I'm on the same page here with you Jess...I don't want to cause another up-roar on this site about what may or may not be fly fishing, but you should maybe clarify yourself a bit here, or I'll start thinking you may show up one day with quarter-sticks-of dy-no-mite to fish like the old Finnlanders in Voelker's stories of the old days U.P. here in MI.:) I just had a little self check in terms of what I'm willing to do, or not do to catch a trout...I tied up a small version of Bob Clouser's minnow using Fox squirrel tail basically. That's all well and good, but I tied them on a Targus 2x wide gape hook because I thought they looked "killer"...I was running it up against structure and in bubble seams below structure, in the rain, and it was smacked by a foot long Brown...I mean he wanted it. When I brought him in I found that the wide gap hook had gone on the inside of his mouth and the hook point was actually protruding on the outside of the fish just below his eye in the bottom of his eye socket...It looked more grusome than it actually was...The eye was completely un-harmed and I had smashed down the barb prior to fishing it...Now I'm fishing in a no-kill stretch and I understand that elsewhere someone other than this vegetarian may have taken this trout home for the frying pan, but the episode caused me a bit of pause and has me re-considering the use of such an opened gapped hook. I truely understand what you are saying in regards to getting closer to the prey, not only in terms of distance, but of developing a better understanding of its behavior etc...This stuff will make you a better angler...Somewhere in the above thread I mentioned the Euro situation where paid anglers/pros go out to fish for restaurants and their methods are more utilitarian than "sporting"...Snagging can be more utilitarian as well, but it's illegal here in MI for at least 10-15 years now and those folks who still employ this method are looking at fines and jail time. All I'm saying here is that there is a line maybe where or methods aren't sporting, maybe unfair to the fish on many, many levels and more "the end justifies the means" than I'm personally willing to except. Just thinking aloud, in print, here... Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Entoman | June 27th, 2011, 5:31 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Spence - Puns aside, you caught my drift. There are a few misguided individuals that are actually proud of their ability to drift an egg pattern into the working jaws of a yawning fish. Why the fish do this is open to study, but that is beside the point. While admittadly evincing a high degree of tackle control which is something to be proud of, it doesn't change the reality that badgering the poor fish in this way is reprehensible. It is legal snagging none the less and has resulted in the banning of certain tackle on many rivers in the attempt to prevent the unsavory practice. A classic example of a few ruining it for the majority as drifting flies deeply to sighted fish that TAKE the fly is great sport. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jesse | June 27th, 2011, 8:57 pm | |
| Damn egg drifting snag fish bastards.. People who do that man of man, i wish i could just put a hook in their burger and wait at the table right next to them to show them what it feels like. If i EVER personally see someone doing that i will kick them in the ass right on the spot! | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Falsifly | June 27th, 2011, 9:19 pm | |
 Posts: 661 | Damn egg drifting snag fish bastards As I slowly advanced my offense, working up river, it became increasingly evident that my tactics were lacking. It was fast approaching the noon hour, and all effort to this point was of no avail. I began frantically searching the deepest recesses of my mind, trying to coerce from memory that perfect combination of imitation and presentation, that would pique the pea brained Pisces to pick-up. It was then, while I was going through one of my many fly boxes, I think for the second time, that I noticed an old salmon egg imitation, buried at the bottom of a mass of tangled flies. I hadn’t seen it in years. Many years ago, as a neophyte, I had used this despicable thing. It was on a private stretch of the Frying Pan from which I had wretched a twenty-seven inch Rainbow, my biggest fish to date. When I say “wretched” what I mean to say is; can you imagine catching the fish of a lifetime on a salmon egg imitation? It kind of takes the wind out of your sail doesn’t it? Well anyway, I thought I’d eliminated all trace of this incriminating evidence long ago. My worst fear was that one of my fishing buddies would spot this in my box; I may as well have been carrying a jar of the real stuff. Surely I would have been shunned, if not down right banished, by my fellow elitists. I grabbed my forceps and deftly plucked it from its place, reveling in the sweet-sour memory it produced. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| PaulRoberts | June 27th, 2011, 9:47 pm | |
Posts: 1776 |  I have absolutely no qualms about fishing an egg pattern, and continue to do so even though I'm 1000miles from the Great Lakes now. I DO nave BIG issues with snagging. | |
| Entoman | June 28th, 2011, 11:19 am | |
Posts: 2604 | Your right Paul, this isn't about egg patterns. I use them too on occasion. As Spence rightly pointed out, the same dastardly attack can also be performed with any sunken fly (though eggs seem to be the despoiler of choice as they are easier to see). All that's required is the proper depth and location to drift directly into the yawning jaws of a tired Steelhead. Of course it may take a hundred drifts not to mention tying up a run or crushing a few thousand eggs wading through redds in the process. But by satan, they're going to get their fish... | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jesse | June 29th, 2011, 12:18 am | |
| Yeah i wasn't bashing egg pattern fly fisherman, i fish eggs a lot in the fall and throughout the winter..NOTHING wrong with that at all. I was more or less just using a few extra words for those out there that snag fish on purposely thats all. | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
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