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> > Two hundred dollars for a freaking pair of pliers
| Jmd123 | February 24th, 2011, 8:11 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | http://www.feather-craft.com/wecs.php?store=feacraft&action=display&target=HM117 This is getting out of control. There are Orvis fly fishing rods and reels that sell for less than this. Of course, I expect the usual bashing from those of you who can't stand my ravings about my $50 fly rod, but go ahead. If you think you NEED to spend $200 on a pair of pliers, I suggest that your priorites are misplaced... Jonathon P.S. I won't even mention $50 for a pair of nippers... | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Troutnut | February 24th, 2011, 8:43 pm | |
 Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | That's hilarious. For what it's worth, I've always found Feather-craft to have very reasonable prices for stuff, so the manufacturer's probably to blame for that bit of sticker shock. Who knows, maybe they're even charging a fair price for the fancy manufacturing processes they used to make these things, gambling that someone out there will actually pay for them. If anyone figures out who it is that's paying $200 for a pair of pliers, would you kindly point them to the Be the trout: Eat mayflies t-shirt in the Troutnut store? And to the rest of the stuff in there, for that matter? Perhaps I should come out with a premium line, where you can pay like $150 for a coffee mug with a Hendrickson on it and the Hendrickson has a gold-colored circle drawn around it to indicate that you're rich and special. | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| Jmd123 | February 24th, 2011, 9:45 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | I did order a bunch of grizzly marabou from Feather-Craft some time ago and a lot of it was JUNK - it looked like the snipped-off base-fluff from a lot of saddle hackle, not the real stuff from the back of the old grizzly dry-fly capes I used to buy where I discovered it in the first place. It is an absolutely essential ingredient to my KBF and it's getting harder to find, especially since it gets trimmed off of almost all capes and saddles these days. I mean, when I buy a chunk of feathers, I figure out how to use ALL of it, not just the ideal premium portion of the piece! I didn't end up complaining to them since it wasn't $200 a package...but I did feel like sending them a few examples of the good stuff and saying make it all look like this, dammit!! Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Jesse | February 25th, 2011, 11:15 am | |
 | Thats simple ridiculous! | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Falsifly | February 25th, 2011, 2:30 pm | |
 Posts: 661 | Without a doubt, the price is questionable. However, the product deserves honorable mention on a number of key issues. The aluminum alloy “6061” is widely used and a long-time staple in the manufacture and assembly of aircraft structures, due to its strength to weight ratio composed in the properties of the Silicon, Iron, Copper, Manganese, Magnesium, Chrome, Zinc and Titanium make-up. The T-6 designation is the temper derived from the “Precipitation Hardening Process” which dissolves and uniformly distributes the alloying elements before the quenching process by maintaining tight limits of both temperature and holding times in computer controlled ovens or salt baths. After quenching, in water, the material is age hardened, but in the case of 6061 T-6 it is artificially age hardened which means that it is aged at an elevated temperature as opposed to room temperature. The process is expensive and time consuming. Anodizing was first used, on an industrial scale, back in the 1920’s for corrosion protection on aluminum parts for seaplanes. The pliers manufacturer claims a Type II process which basically differs from the Type I in that sulfuric acid is used rather that the older chromic acid, as the solution during the electrolytic process. The coloring procedure most likely used in the Type II process is by addition of organic acids to the sulfuric acid to make up the red or gray choice. The question here is the thickness of the anodized layer which is defined in Military Specification MIL-A-8625 for Type II anodizing ranging between 1.8 um to 25 um. Without the manufacture’s data one can only hope that it is sufficient to withstand the normal abuse of everyday fishing, providing protection against the highly corrosive affects in the salt water environment once the anodized layer is compromised. Not unlike the claims coming from the “reel people” in which some claim the use of material and processes developed from the aerospace industry, I doubt that we expect our fishing equipment to take flight, unless by the hand of some “would be” miscreant. That being the case I just can’t justify the $200 expense. So with a little research I purchased a pair, one for me and one for a good friend, at an unbelievable price of just $199.99 each. With the money I saved I think I’ll get one of those T-shirts. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Troutnut | February 25th, 2011, 3:25 pm | |
Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | So with a little research I purchased a pair, one for me and one for a good friend, at an unbelievable price of just $199.99 each. With the money I saved I think I’ll get one of those T-shirts. That's the spirit! | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| Gutcutter | February 25th, 2011, 3:37 pm | |
 Posts: 470 | Someone WILL pay $200 for a pair of pliers. Otherwise they wouldn't offer them for sale. I won't. But I paid a hundred for a pair a few years ago. Why? Because i got tired of replacing the "cheap" $20 pliers every year. I fish in saltwater a lot. No matter how well you care for a good "cheap" pair, they will rust out and the side cutters will dull to the point that it is tough to clip 20# mono. I have replaced the blades on mine once in five years and they look yhe same as when I first pulled them out of the package. Now, I didn't buy the $50 hand sewn genuine leather sheath or the $20 coiled double stainless steel clip that were offered with them, but I am happy with my purchase. For people who like quality "stuff", I'm sure they will be pleased with their purchase. The first time that I pulled it out on my long time guide's skiff, he was all over me about them. After a few days of sorting through the 3 pairs of pliers on his boat to find one that would cut, he looked at me and I handed him my pair. The next year, I bought him a pair for Christmas. He is still using them and they, too, look brand new. But he tells me that he has to hide them whenever he is fishing with one of his guide friends! Making fun of a $200 pair of pliers is easy. So is making fun of a really expensive dissecting scope when most "common" people would say that a magnifying glass will do just fine. | |
| All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness | ||
| Gutcutter | February 25th, 2011, 3:40 pm | |
Posts: 470 | And with the $100 savings, I am hapy to report that I own three coffee mugs and two teeshirts | |
| All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness | ||
| Jmd123 | February 25th, 2011, 4:59 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | The dissecting scope I currently work with costs about $1750 and is made by Meiji in Japan. It helps when one is required by contract to identify mayflies to genus (as financial liabilities are involved) and you need perfect clarity at 45x and above. That way I can see whether or not the front pair of tibiae have long hairs or stout spines to tell Caenis from Americaenis, etc... The boss also charges an hourly usage fee for this microscope to help pay for buying it, as he thinks it may be "the only project he will ever use it on" - although he made this mistake already over two years ago when he went for the cheaper one which is still sitting on the shelf unused after we gave the identification work to someone else... I will never spend $200 on a pair of pliers for my own entertainment. Then again, I'm not a saltwater fishing guide who does it for a living. Spend it if you want, I still thinks it's crazy. BTW, a hell of a lot more precise workmanship and materials go into making a microscope work well than a pair of freaking pliers. Or a fly rod for that matter. Jonathon P.S. Thanks Falsifly for the fascinating metalurgical discussion. | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Jesse | February 25th, 2011, 5:59 pm | |
| Im all about buying quality stuff. I have rod and reel combos that cost well over a 1000$ when put together, nice waders, boots, etc.. Granted i got a lot of that stuff at discount prices due to working deals and such, but still i love the quality stuff. I love the cheap stuff to that works great such as my 100$ dogwood canyon 8'6 fly rod and reel combo (my first rod ever that i still use). However, i still agree with Jonathon here when i say that spending 200$ + on a pair of pliers is just a tad bit to much. Ok its just flat out rediculous! Even if your going to be wearing them down in the salt im sure theres better deals one can find. I wouldn't even waste my time with those pliers unless i was getting them pro-formed or very discounted. Theres just to many other things id rather spend my money on for fly fishing! | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Jmd123 | February 25th, 2011, 8:08 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | http://www.feather-craft.com/wecs.php?store=feacraft&action=display&target=347119 Is this really a much poorer alternative? More my price range... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Falsifly | February 25th, 2011, 8:21 pm | |
Posts: 661 | BTW, a hell of a lot more precise workmanship and materials go into making a microscope work well than a pair of freaking pliers. I’m going to take this way off topic, but speaking of precise workmanship and materials, and just talking in terms of technological achievement, I thought that some of you might find this as fascinating as I do. It’s 45 minutes long so I know many won’t want to take the time to watch, but for those that do, I think you will find it awe-inspiring. It’s all camera footage with what I assume has to be state of the art photographic equipment. I apologize for posting what some may consider inappropriate material for this site due to the irrelevance to trout fishing, but considering how far off-course some of the other topics have drifted maybe I’ll be cut some slack. In tribute to the last shuttle launch I hope someone will enjoy: Ascent | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Wbranch | February 25th, 2011, 10:05 pm | |
 Posts: 2733 | Falsify wrote; "The aluminum alloy “6061” is widely used and a long-time staple in the manufacture and assembly of aircraft structures, due to its strength to weight ratio composed in the properties of the Silicon, Iron, Copper, Manganese, Magnesium, Chrome, Zinc and Titanium make-up. The T-6 designation is the temper derived from the “Precipitation Hardening Process” which dissolves and uniformly distributes the alloying elements before the quenching process by maintaining tight limits of both temperature and holding times in computer controlled ovens or salt baths. After quenching, in water, the material is age hardened, but in the case of 6061 T-6 it is artificially age hardened which means that it is aged at an elevated temperature as opposed to room temperature. The process is expensive and time consuming." All this is true, however if these reel manufacturers really wanted to be using high end aluminum billets they would be using 7075 T6 which has much better metalurgical attributes than 6061. I spent my entire working career in the management of machine shops, toolrooms, and R&D engineering groups and whenever an aluminum alloy was needed for high tensile and shear strengths we always chose products in the 7000 series. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Falsifly | February 26th, 2011, 9:04 am | |
Posts: 661 | Matt, you are correct, 7075 has better strength than 6061 and better fatigue resistance. However, it is more susceptible to corrosion, especially intergranular corrosion, so I think 6061 would be the preferred alloy, especially in a salt water environment. I left the aerospace industry many years ago and had a chance to work with some pretty exotic materials such as Inconel, Monel, Molybdenum, Titanium, Magnesium, Tungsten, and the various Stainless Steel alloys. I left just as the composite materials were making great advancements into the structural and fight control components. I can only guess at the evolution of materials since my departure, so be warned that I claim no special knowledge in the aluminum alloys. But I do get a kick out of advertisements claiming, made with aircraft grade or aircraft quality aluminum; it has that smell of money attached to it. I’m waiting for the reel manufactures to require that the reels be sent back to the manufacturer for an annual inspection, performed by an aircraft and powerplant technician with inspection authorization or your warranty is void. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Jmd123 | February 26th, 2011, 11:39 am | |
Posts: 2611 | I can see it now: "This pair of pliers is GUARANTEED to perform at MACH 3+!!" Just in case you have to climb outside of your SR-71 Blackbird to splice a wire while it's cruising at 2,200 mph and an altitude of 100,000 feet, I guess... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Troutnut | February 26th, 2011, 1:24 pm | |
Administrator Bellevue, WAPosts: 2737 | Hey speak for yourself, I perform in-flight exterior repairs to my SR-71 all the time! In other news, wouldn't it be awesome if you had a plane that could do mach 3 and still land on a 100 yard gravel bar? Imagine being able to fish any hatch in the country in the evening after work! That would be totally worth $200. | |
| Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist | ||
| Jmd123 | February 26th, 2011, 5:35 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | While we're speaking of aircraft and aircraft-grade materials, I should mention that my current boss used to fly on the KC-135Q tanker planes used to refuel the SR-71 Blackbirds in flight while on their way to their secret reconaissance missions. He was a navigator, his job was to "paint" the weather so they didn't fly into any storms and get all messed up. He told me that, in order to catch up with the Blackbirds, they had to be going full throttle and go into a dive to get up to the minimum (stalling) speed of the Blackbirds so they could link up. And afterwards, the Blackbirds would punch their throttles and disappear like rockets over the horizon... AMAZING to think that these futuristic aircraft were designed in the late '50's and flying in the early '60s...just imagine what they have now! Check out the Federation of American Scientists website and look up "Aurora" under the Mystery Aircraft section... Also check out the book "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich, about Lockheed's "black aircraft" development facility. Nevertheless, I don't think our pliers or fly reels need to meet such extreme military performance specifications. Unless perhaps you plan on flyfishing in those methane-ethane lakes on Titan... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | February 26th, 2011, 6:35 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Hey wbranch and falsifly - Fascinating discussion! Pretty obvious you guys know what you're talking about. What about ceramic surfaces on the metal? Seems to be all the rage now for the ultimate in corrosion and scratch resistance (so the ads say). Also, a brief discourse would be nice on the metal used in the cheaper reels and why it's so crappy. Technology in flyfishing has exploded since the collapse of the aerospace industry in CA. All those highly trained engineers, applied materials experts, and machinists had to do something. Luckily for a lot of them, fly fishing exploded from a small guild of eccentrics to a virtual nation of bobber floppers and bugger flingers - very quickly and at about the same period of time. And all having to have the latest gizmos! Kinda' like when skiing became all the rage and you'd see people with thousands of dollars worth of gear and only one out a hundred could ski any better than if you'd glued planks to the bottoms of their feet. Didn't matter, they still had to have the best gear. Hey Jason - There's the first evidence of green jobs rising out of the ashes of the Military/Industrial complex, and without government subsidy! Of course, you won't be getting that Mach 3 personal craft anytime soon and I don't know how green it is to line our rivers and streams with the afore mentioned, but hey, there's got to be a little give and take in the equation. :) Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | February 26th, 2011, 7:17 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Kurt, it's funny that you mention the phenomenon of "hobby explosion syndrome". I remember when fly fishing exploded as all the rage after Brad Pitt did it in "A River Runs Through It" and suddenly there were all of these new rod, reel, and everything else fly fishing manufacturers on the market that had never been seen before. Of course, that coincides with the end of the Cold War nicely as well... Kind of reminds me of amateur astronomy. We were just a bunch of geeks until three things happened, all concerning comets: Comet Shoemaker-Levy slams into Jupiter (1994); Comet Hyakutake (1996); and Comet Hale-Bopp (1997). Suddenly all of these new telescope manufacturers are showing up in the magazines, the established ones pump out a whole bunch of new models (including new high-tech glass technology such as flourite and ED), and EVERYONE and their freaking third uncle wants a telescope! Not to mention the phenomenon of the "star party" takes off (think of a bunch of folks camping together in a big open field staying up all night long sharing views through their various scopes), and there are suddenly computer-driven telescopes that even a novice can find obscure galaxies with just by telling the scope to go find it for them! (Provided, of course, that they can read and understand the instruction manual...) Holy crap, we're not just a bunch of nerds anymore!!! Mountain biking, cross-country skiing, and kayaking all underwent the same interest explosion in the last couple of decades as well, as evidenced by the number of manufacturers that got into the business. And, all of which also experienced the same application of "high-tech" exotic materials, e.g., carbon-fiber and titanium frames for bikes, etc... I guess all those old Cold Warriors had to find new jobs somewhere! Ain't life grand? Jonathon P.S. Okay, here's one for ya: how about an UNBREAKABLE fly rod??? I'm sick and tired of snapping delicate wands of graphite - does anyone make a TOUGH fly rod that won't snap at the drop of a hat? | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Falsifly | February 26th, 2011, 8:26 pm | |
Posts: 661 | P.S. Okay, here's one for ya: how about an UNBREAKABLE fly rod??? I'm sick and tired of snapping delicate wands of graphite - does anyone make a TOUGH fly rod that won't snap at the drop of a hat? Well Jonathon, I guess that depends on how much you want to spend. Are you saying that you’re having problems with those $50 rods? | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
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