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> > Two hundred dollars for a freaking pair of pliers, Page 2
| Wbranch | February 26th, 2011, 8:28 pm | |
 Posts: 2733 | Falsify wrote: "However, it is more susceptible to corrosion, especially intergranular corrosion, so I think 6061 would be the preferred alloy, especially in a salt water environment." That may be true but that is why we used what is called "Hardcoat Anodize" coating on all of our 7075 T6 products that need to survive in the elements. The end product had to undergo many quality tests and one of them was called "Salt Spray Test", As the name implies a product wss fixtured so it could be held in an environment where it was sprayed with a salt medium for a specific length of time. At the end of the time period it had to be free of any ablation and corrosion. Hardcoat anodize differs significantly from the anodizing that is performed on modern fly reels. That plating process does provide some resistance to corrosion but the main thrust is to color the aluminum base metal to make it more eye appealing. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Jmd123 | February 26th, 2011, 9:11 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | To be brutally honest, I once snapped a $400+ Sage fly rod without trying very hard...it ain't just the cheap ones that break! I'd be happy to pay more for one that I didn't have to worry about all the time. But you know, it's like paying $60K for a car instead of $20K - if the $60K car was guaranteed to last three times as long as the $20K car, it would be worth it. However, this is never the case - it only lasts the same amount of time, and then it's three times as expensive to repair it! Another little story here: back when I was married, the ex and I (and our cute little baby daughter) were fishing down at one of the "trout parks" in Missouri. A fellow came along with a rather distressed look on his face and asked us, "Did you happen to see a fly rod laying on the ground around here?" To which we replied no, we had not seen any fly rods laying around unattended, which was the truth. He then told us how he had left his $700 Sage rod behind by accident and couldn't find it...After he left, I promptly informed my then wife that I would NEVER, EVER pay $700 for a fly rod. BTW, my $50 Cabelas Three Forks has a two-year free, no questions asked, replacement warranty should I happen to break it. Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Falsifly | February 26th, 2011, 10:06 pm | |
 Posts: 661 | BTW, my $50 Cabelas Three Forks has a two-year free, no questions asked, replacement warranty should I happen to break it. Reminded me of this story: I hit the trail at Jaffe Park for the twenty minute uphill trek along the Roaring Fork; destination, the large deep pool of mellifluous water tailing the narrow torrent chute. One of many, but this one is my favorite. This would be my first stop from which I would head up river to the old bridge, and then fish down completing a full day. On schedule standing high above the pool, at the edge of a steep rocky ledge, I could see the fish eagerly taking midge pupa; a precursor to the hatch, for which I had come, indicating yet another day of exceptional fishing amid this warm, cloudless, early-spring day. With my approach planned I back tracked to the tail of the pool, and descended the acutely angled slope sending rocks scurrying to waters edge, as I tried slowly side-stepping a stealthy approach. Advancing along waters edge, toward my intended target, the fish continued to flash in the gin clear chasm; a mixed consortium of perfectly spotted browns and prismatic rainbows, all interspersed with a few, rare, ostentatiously bejeweled brookies. Once my footing was precariously anchored in the, quick to shift rocky rubble, I began to ply line, false casting for the desired distance. After stripping the required turns from the reel, and settling into my rhythm, I shifted direction on the final back cast to an upstream slant. On my forward sweep the rod was loaded, at about the 12 o’clock position, with a resistive force halting all further progress. With a quick glance over my right shoulder it was confirmed that my flies were firmly ensconced, high atop a back stabbing aspen. I gently applied the retrieving force, only to lose my tandem tie, to the stingy tree. I retied a new partnership, as that of which had just been confiscated, and once again began the process of doling out my exiguous imitation of fish food; correcting each succeeding back cast, as necessary, to avoid another terminal loss. After successfully completing the required number of cast, to confirm that the fishing would be better if I moved, I picked a new spot and continued the stalk. Once again, with precarious footing established, I divvied up the required line and initiated my change of direction cast, and immediately found myself in a give and take struggle with an unrelenting branch of the same tree. I reeled up all slack and reached to grab the line exiting the rod tip with my right hand; with line firmly grasped I tested the will of the branch. At first my nemesis began to bow as if to give in, but as I gained ground I felt the tensile strength of my leader being tested. In a stand off I decided to exit the fray with a quick snap of my forearm. In slow motion I watched my line shooting towards my face as I stumbled backwards losing my footing. I salvaged my vertical stature in a staccato series of tumbling steps, amid the rolling rocks. Now I was pissed, and I blamed the damned tree. I fixed anew, from the perfection loop in the six inches of .023 amnesia nail knotted to my fly line, as I regained my composure. With the phalanx of branches behind me, indelibly set in my minds eye, I once again returned to my task. As things were progressing smoothly I noticed a nice brown, zigzagging laterally and vertically just below the surface, exposing the white interior of his mouth with each ingestion of the helpless minutiae. His position required a cast, which my backdrop would ensnare, if not performed cautiously. I set up my false casting, behind the fish so as not to spook him, and at the same time maintained vigil on my back cast; with synchronized sweeps of rod and head. Things were very tight, as I adjusted my back cast as close as I could, to the over hanging branches. On the final cast I corrected ever so slightly to my intended target, and caught the G@d D@mned branch again. I immediately launched into a fit of rage, a tantrum resulting in loss of all self control; I faced the water with the tree behind me, I held the rod at the two o’clock position and reeled in all slack until taut, then I gave a forward thrust with all my might. I heard what sounded like a small caliber rifle shot coupled with an unhinging feeling in my wrist. In total disbelief I saw my St. Croix, eight foot, five weight, two piece, Ultra Legend, completely severed three inches above the ferrule, in the typical splintery display of shattered graphite. I climbed the slope to the trail and made the twenty minute hike back to the truck for a second rod. I always carry a second rod just for these occasions. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Entoman | February 27th, 2011, 2:28 am | |
 Posts: 2604 | Indestructible rods - Back in the late seventies, Shakespeare made a rod called the "ugly stik" that promised to be unbreakable. It lived up to its name in every way. Ugly to look at, ugly to cast, and you could NOT break it... Guys in my group of Baja bums called 'em "skunks" (because of the black blanks with the 8" white tips). Ah... What winters we had, before Cabo was Cabo and nobody had a clue what Corona beer was...But I digress. Everybody had 'em for spares (except the holdout Fenwick fans that owned the "tarpon tamer" (kid you not, that was it's name, and it was a joy to cast as well)). Why did we bother with them? At the dawn of graphite rods, the "breakthrough" in casting technology was accompanied with a "breakdone" when trying to lift sounding fish. Keep in mind this was before blanks were designed for the salt and the best we could get were heavy Steelhead (10 wt) rods. Anyway, these "skunks" rolled around the bottom of pangas, engaged in drunken sword fights, acted as props for the worst immoralities... They were stepped on, stomped on, slammed in doors, used for braces to get the Land Cruiser out of deep ruts, and bent 90 degrees over a hard edge... they never failed. We all prayed the curse wouldn't hit forcing us to actually fish with them, but they were as advertised... Unbreakable!!! Need an extra pool cue back at the Cantina? No problem... Gaff? Lash a 10 ought hook to it, no sweat... If Spencer Tracy had one of 'em, he could have lashed his knife to it instead of that oar he used, and killed every shark that attacked his fish, and with energy to spare! So I don't confuse, it wasn't "stiff stiff" it was "mushy stiff". If you drank enough before the match of pool shooting or shark killing, the wibbles would've taken care of the wobbles. I seem to remember they made trout models as well. I'm sure a patient soul could find a used one on line at a reasonable price. Never cast or fished with one, so I can't vouch for them (can imagine though). But I can flat guarantee that a tougher rod was never made!!! You could grab it two ft. down and bend the tip into a circle 'till it pointed the same direction as the rod (Shakespeare did in promotional ads at the time). Try that with your fancy rods! What a feat of genius brought to an end by rods that could actually be fished with and came with lifetime guarantees against breakage. Of course, you have to be willing to pay for them. Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Entoman | February 27th, 2011, 2:35 am | |
Posts: 2604 | BTW, would you guys please continue the metallurgy conversation? I was enjoying the hell out of it and actually learning something! Please, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Shawnny3 | February 27th, 2011, 6:35 am | |
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PAPosts: 1197 | Nice stories, guys. Falsifly, I quite enjoyed that story again - it doesn't get old to laugh at someone else's misfortune. You tell it well. I don't know Kurt well, but it seems we have another writer in our midst. Very well told - I chuckled more than once at the imagery. My father has one of those rods, and my brother had one until last year when he lent it to his sister-in-law on a fishing trip and she spent more time with her eyes on a book than on her bobber. You may not be able to break them, but big catfish can dispose of them for you. My brother loved that rod - he lost a piece of his own fishing history that day. -Shawn | |
| Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com | ||
| Jmd123 | February 27th, 2011, 9:29 am | |
Posts: 2611 | Shawn, I lost an entire ice-fishing rig once, though not by reading a book instead of paying attention. I had a nice little ice-spinning rod & reel set up on a hole with a small spoon and medium-sized minnow for bait, mounted in a little self-standing rod holder on the ice. A tip-up went off some distance away and my cousin Steve & I went running over to see what was attached to it, which sadly turned out to be nothing. So we turned back to where the ice-spinning rig was set up, and it was GONE - sucked down through the hole by a pike or walleye...it helps to pay attention. I have never fished with an Ugly Stick, but don't they still make them?? Seems like I've seen them in the spinning rod sections of tackle shops...maybe not the fly rods anymore? I had no idea that my rant about a $200 pair of pliers would elicit such elaborate discussions about metallurgy or such elegant prose. We really must have some serious cabin fever going on around here! Jonathon P.S. Falisfly's story brings up an important advantage about those $50-$100 fly rods - I should go buy three or four more of them so as to have spares for the next time I break one so I don't just quit fishing in disgust. BTW, Falsifly, what happened next??? | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Falsifly | February 27th, 2011, 10:39 am | |
Posts: 661 | St Croix rods are made just down the road away from me in Park Falls. When I purchased the rod it was a two piece that came with a lifetime guarantee against breakage. I called St Croix and told them that I broke the rod. The question of how was never asked, to my surprise. I was instructed to ship it back and they would either repair it or replace it at their discretion, costing me only the round robin shipping. Within a matter of a few short days my new rod arrived, but it was different. The two piece was no longer available so they sent me a new four piece instead, but the line weight and length were the same. I might add that the retail of the new rod was substantially more than what I paid for originally. I can assure you that I was a very happy camper. They’re up around $340 now. I own three St Croix rods and will willingly endorse their fly rods for both quality and service. I do apologize to St Croix and anyone buying a new fly rod, because it was people like me that that pulled the plug on lifetime guarantees. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Jmd123 | February 27th, 2011, 12:12 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | I have been curious about the St. Croix Imperial series. Do you own or have you owned any of them? They are within my acceptable price range and they make some nice little ones for the small streams I like to fish. Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Falsifly | February 27th, 2011, 1:07 pm | |
Posts: 661 | For Kurt, Anodizing basically provides three functions: protection from corrosion, protection from surface wear and a means to provide coloration. Each may be used singularly or they may be used collectively depending on the importance of the application. For example: The parts manufacturer wants to differentiate between two similarly looking parts that have different metallurgical properties, so color is key. Boeing may be concerned with corrosion protection only. The drive sprocket manufacturer may want better resistance to wear. The reel people may want color to catch the eye, protection against scratching, and corrosion abatement. The anodizing process has industrial standards set by Military specifications (MIL), Aerospace Material Specifications (AMS), American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), International Organization for Standardization (ISO), and more. Aircraft manufactures and others commonly set their own specifications. The process is broken down into “Type” i.e. Type I, II, IIB, and III. The “hardcoat” that Matt refers to is Type III. Matt’s mention of the “Salt Spay Test” is again a standardized procedure set forth by engineering groups as above. It tests the corrosion inhibiting properties of the various coatings by setting standards and ratings. Most commonly the item being tested is enclosed in a container and exposed to an atomized dense saline fog of sodium chloride and rated by time exposure vs. surface degradation. What about ceramic surfaces on the metal? Ceramic coating offers surface protection but I think it’s major function is to protect the underlying base metal allowing operation at elevated temperatures thus increasing thermal efficiency in jet engines turbine blades and the like, better referred to as “Thermal Barrier Coating.” If we can increase the temperature resistance to combustion in those components that convert heat into mechanical energy we can benefit from the power derived from elevated thermodynamic reactions. It is also growing in the automotive industry as a heat insulator in exhaust systems, reducing heat radiation. I’m sure it's probably used as a coating for electrical insulation and much more. Also, a brief discourse would be nice on the metal used in the cheaper reels and why it's so crappy. This one is easy. It’s not that the metal is crappy; it is just used as a cheaper alternative to much better material, to complement those cheap $50 fly rods. ;) | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Falsifly | February 27th, 2011, 1:31 pm | |
Posts: 661 | I have been curious about the St. Croix Imperial series. Do you own or have you owned any of them? Yes I have one 8’ 6wt 2pc. Imperial. It was the first St. Croix fly rod that I purchased. I used it for about three years before switching to a 5wt Legend Ultra having a much faster action. Absolutely no complaints. It is a medium action rod if that is what you are looking for. Again, I have nothing but praise for St. Croix quality, price and customer satisfaction. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Wbranch | February 27th, 2011, 5:52 pm | |
Posts: 2733 | "better referred to as “Thermal Barrier Coating." Some fishing products are receiving treatments like this and spinning guides and fly rod strippers for years have had the inner rings made from ceramic material to defeat, or greatly minimize, guide grooving. For a number of years now Hopkins & Holloway have been promoting a vapor deposition process they have named "DLC" an acronymn for Diamond Like Carbide. They use this coating, about .0002" thick, on their chrome plated snake guides. I've employed them on many of the fly rods I've built and the finish is very slick and I've seen no wear at all on any of the rods on which I've wrapped these guides. These snakes are far more costly than regular chrome plated snakes but considering I've seen chromed snakes show line wear and these guides exhibit no wear the price differential is offset by not having to remove, re-wrap, and re-finish guides that do wear. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Entoman | February 27th, 2011, 6:02 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Allan & Matt - Thanks for the clear explanation on anodizing and such. I thought the ceramic technology was spawned by the need for more efficient turbine blades. Thanks for confirming it. Interesting about the snake guides. They're not brittle? This one is easy. It’s not that the metal is crappy; it is just used as a cheaper alternative to much better material, to complement those cheap $50 fly rods. ;) So the metal is OK, it's the rods that are crappy! Ahhh... Makes sense. Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Wbranch | February 28th, 2011, 12:42 pm | |
Posts: 2733 | Hello Kurt, "They're not brittle?" No, the coating of .0002" (two ten thousanths of an inch) is so microscopically thin that you wouln't be able to see it. Besides carbide is a metal and not a ceramic and therefore isn't brittle in the sense of a typical ceramic. One point to be aware of is chrome plating to guides, or other metal products, is often added not for eye appeal but because chrome is so hard and so much more likely to withstand friction created heat. Carbide is one of the heaviest of metals, pure tungsten alloy is heavier, but carbide is more wear resistant. Carbide has a higher, attainable, Rockwell C scale rating than your best alloy tool steels. Maybe Falsify knows whether chrome is "harder" than a high grade micro grain carbide. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Jmd123 | February 28th, 2011, 3:35 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Man, the metallurgy is flying now! Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Wbranch | February 28th, 2011, 5:20 pm | |
Posts: 2733 | That's okay as long as the B__S__t doesn't start to fly! | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Entoman | February 28th, 2011, 8:05 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Hi Matt - Thanks for the input... Amazing stuff this topic. I've got a few rods with the new "flexible" snake guides. I think they're titanium alloy? Have no idea how they'll hold up to friction (no signs of wear yet) but they're not my favorites so don't get used constantly. For some reason I'm hard on guides in that they seem to get bent. Especially after a lot of rock hopping or bushwacking while getting to some secret spot or fishing a lot in boats. I try to be careful and always go rod butt first when hiking, but what can I say? Thanks, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Falsifly | March 1st, 2011, 3:43 pm | |
Posts: 661 | Maybe Falsify knows whether chrome is "harder" than a high grade micro grain carbide. In terms of chrome, even hard chromium plate, I think that the carbides will win out in the hardness category. Chromium Carbide is harder, Tungsten Carbide is harder yet, and Titanium Carbide is way up there. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Jmd123 | March 1st, 2011, 5:38 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | I have read that tungsten carbide (WC) rates a 9.5 on the Mohs scale of hardness, with diamond being a 10 and corundum (aluminum oxide, a.k.a. ruby, sapphire) being a 9. WC is favored for armor-piercing tank cannon projectiles, like those launched from the M1A1/A2 Abrams, along with cetain alloys of uranium. Our next-generation fly reels or pliers??? Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Wbranch | March 1st, 2011, 11:05 pm | |
Posts: 2733 | Jonathon, You wrote; "WC is favored for armor-piercing tank cannon projectiles, like those launched from the M1A1/A2 Abrams" You may have received less than accurate information about the "favored" use of carbide for tank projectiles. I spent the last twenty-three years of my career manufacturing the sabots used to carry the sub caliber armor piercing penetrators used in the Abrams M1A1 and M1A2 tanks. The material of choice by the US Army to manufacture penetrators is depleted uranium. It is a heavy metal but with very good ductility, and the billets can be forged and it still has good machining characteristics. Conversely carbide is a powdered metal technology and it is sintered and billets, or ingots, are created under high pressure. Carbide billets have very little shear strength and can fracture quite readily. The US government sometimes sells tank ammo to our foreign allies however some of those countries do not allow depleted uranium penetrators. In those instances alloyed tungsten billets are forged, and machined, to the same geometry as the DU penetrators and still possess the same general weight and mass characteristics. All heavy metal penetrators possess tremendous kenetic energy. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
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