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| PaulRoberts | February 17th, 2011, 7:00 pm | |
 Posts: 1776 | Jonathan, there just is no one way to have fun, or be driven to obsession. | |
| Entoman | February 17th, 2011, 11:07 pm | |
 Posts: 2604 | Shared a conversation with somebody from Montana on another thread a while back. When asked if he spent much time on a certain river noted for very large and selective rainbows, he commented that he never fished it (though it's no more than 30 - 40 min. from his house). He prefers rock hopping at no name places for easy fish and solitude. His fly selection is limited to a self admitted motley collection of just a few patterns. Whatever floats your boat is all that's important... Jonathon - Sounds like a case of the "shoemakers children are the last to get shoes" syndrome. If I looked at bugs all day, they'd be the last things I'd want to focus much on when fishing too. There's an old saying among guides, "The only effective cure for a bad dose of the fishing virus is a good long stint of guiding the same river.." Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 18th, 2011, 9:29 am | |
Posts: 1776 | Kurt that's a major point, and one that Jonathan mentioned, that some waters REQUIRE entomological considerations. But as I've posted before, on other threads, I've seen things on little creeks that I would not want to have missed out on. But that's me. I work harder than anyone NEEDS to -if solitude spent in nature, and catching a few fish is what you're after. I too, echoing Spence, fish alone the vast majority of the time. My brother would say, "You don't want to follow Paul in the woods. You'll be all scratched up by day's end and wondering just what the hell for." I guess my endorphins explode at the slightest intimation of provocation. | |
| TNEAL | February 18th, 2011, 11:38 am | |
| GRAYLING. MICHIGAN Posts: 278 | I know very few good fly fishermen who don't tie their own; I know a bunch, however, who don't prounce the scientific names well... | |
| PaulRoberts | February 18th, 2011, 11:52 am | |
Posts: 1776 | Presentation is 90% of the game.... as we've heard, although for a newb it may be more like 100% of the game. But, after we have presentation down, what you tie on -the image you present- looms large. In my fishing report thread "Summer Flow in Late Summer" I fish a largish low maintenance dry for the day. Fish take it just fine in that small, fairly turbulent, stream. But it failed (predictably) on slick spots -flat surfaces. If the majority of the stream had been flat surfaced that fly would have failed miserably. I'd have chosen a smaller fly -a baetis or ant type thing. (Midges are a last resort for me). That larger fly also received ONE rejection per fish. Then they wouldn't even consider it. If I'd chosen that smaller slimmer pattern I'd have at least had a good shot at a second rise per fish. The main pattern wasn't the best choice as far as the fish were concerned, but it was the easiest to fish as far as I was concerned. No preening or primping needed. After each fish I'd simply rinse, squeeze, and blow on it to perk up the important parts. I fished that one fly the whole time. With a more accurate more interesting pattern, that perking and primping would soon give way to SOS!! And I'd have had to re-tie fresh ones on every now and then. So...I was lazy. So there! But I could afford it on that stream. Nothin wrong with that -IS THERE???!!! LOL But...there are times when such a tact fails. My report "High Country Gems" illustrates that. High country brookies -what could be dummer?? Well, water level had receded a bit and flows were almost stagnant. Looking at that water I immediately thought, "Midge on 7x". But they were tiny stream brookies! So I stuck with my maintenance free #14 and 5x -and those brookies refused it enough that it just wasn't worth it. So, I compromised and went to 6x and a #18 baetid. Back in business. Now, these decisions had little to do with entomology, but fly choice still mattered. Add some "search images" impressed on the brains of those trout and a different set of factors arise -one's we can take serious advantage of, if we recognize them. We can debate/rattle on about what the best way to fish is, or what fantasies we want to pursue are, but there IS a very real, and ever-changing world out there. And in the end it'll dictate what our outcomes will be. Doesn't pay to have a closed/preconceived mind in that kind of world. | |
| Entoman | February 18th, 2011, 12:21 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Not to be misunderstood, I love rock hopping and exploring little rivers and creeks in total solitude - do it all the time. The point I was making is that some NEVER fish the tougher waters (thank God, many can get crowded enough already). Not that there's anything wrong with it. Any more than there is with those that ONLY fish the more difficult waters. It's interesting how the ONLYS and the NEVERS often seem to get a little defensive or smug regarding each other. They shouldn't, since there isn't moral or sporting high ground with either. Frankly, I prefer to engage in both as often as I can. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Jmd123 | February 18th, 2011, 1:18 pm | |
 Posts: 2611 | Okay Spence, if you're going to compare me to a trained mouse I'm gonna have to take a poke back at ya, buddy. I'll even do it on your favorite smallie hole on the Huron! Forthwith: Spence and I have only fished together twice so far, both on his self-proclaimed "Spencer's Pool" on the Huron downstate. Well, both times Mr. Hatchmatcher is talking all evening long about Isonychias emerging and turning on the fishies. Not much happened until the sun started going down either time - this was on a couple of scorching hot days last August, when we wondered if the fish would turn on at all because of the heat. We picked up a few here and there on streamers, some of which were bluegill and rock bass. Well, darkness begins to fall the first time and Spence is wondering out loud, where are those damned Isonychias?? I asked him (and also once Rich the Orvis guy at their shop down in Royal Oak) what sort of fly imitates an Isonychia, and was told something in gray and brown. Well, I said, how about an ADAMS? (Caps for emphasis, Spence...) Spence says, sure, give it a try...within a few minutes BANG, here's a nice 13" smallie dancing on the end of my line. He did not score... Next time out, same thing, Spence is wondering where all those damned Isonychias were. Darkness falls and we see what looks like whiteflies - Ephoron leukon or something like it - floating about but nobody's feeding except for a few random rises. So, Jonathon here ties himself on a WHITE WULFF and starts pitching it around blindly in the dark. Within a few minutes BLAMMMO!! This time it was 18" and it took me a good 15 minutes to bring it to the net. Again, Spence did not score.. He would like everyone to believe it was "beginner's luck" on "his" pool. Yeah, sure buddy...two times in a row outfishing him in his favorite spot, with two of my very favorite of all time, non-specific-imitation dry flies. Works for me - your results may differ! Jonathon P.S. I have tied and tried the whole gammut of flies in various situations and various waters, and I keep returning to those on my short list because they work, and work CONSISTENTLY. Spence, let's go fishing up here and you can bring as many boxes full of as many flies as you want, no problem with me, and we'll see how many more fish you catch than I do. We can even wager a round or two of your favorite intoxicating beverage if you like... | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 18th, 2011, 1:43 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Well...far be it from me to get involved in someone else's pissing contest (even if this is among friends). But... as I'm sure you're aware, ONE fish per trip is not saying much, statistically. What I'm talking about, even on small streams, is the 15, 20, or even 30:1 advantage. It doesn't happen all the time, esp on small waters, but it's that noticeable. It's not driven by fishing/casting skill, but by those bugs. IF those Iso's had come on, and you stuck with your White Wulff, the story would likely have been different -depending on what the bugs, and Spence, actually did. | |
| Entoman | February 18th, 2011, 1:47 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | What was this thread about again? Uhhh... Anyway, my bladder's almost empty, but I have a few comments regarding the false dichotomy between minimalists and hatchmatchers. I think they're both full of beans. We've all come up with the "perfect imitation" at one time or another that has failed miserably. You can lug around a complete inventory of several styles of perfectly matching flies (according to human eyes) for every insect known to man, most of them worthless. But hey, the Sherpa Packers Union will be happy with you! Now for the flip side. Jonathon - Your anecdotal story at poor Spence's expense and the relative degree of selectivity between bass and trout aside (a little bit of the smugness I was referring to earlier in evidence?):) I promise you'll often as not end up with a "pretty light basket" on most spring creeks (out west anyway) if all you've got is the selection you mentioned. I believe the point of entomology applied to fishing is primarily knowledge of the bugs behavior and bioavailability, not "hatch-matching" if meant by that tying on a perfectly copied gray winged brown bodied fly that is "just right" in size and color. At times, such flies can be just what's called for, but more and more on our hard fished waters, it's becoming something a little different from what they're used to seeing that fits the bill. One of my favorite flies for fishing over tiny Olive Quills and White Winged Blacks on several of the toughest rivers in the west is a size 20 Royal Wulff (picked up that little trick from a guide on the Snake in Wyoming). There's also a story in one of Gierach's books where he was guided for a stonefly hatch. When asking if he should tie on a Stimulator the guide replied, "No, try one of those flies of your own design. These fish have been "stimulated" enough already." How true! Usually the "hot" fly flames out pretty quickly as the fish get pounded with it incessantly. Here's a neat trick for long timers - start using some of your old favorites again (if the moths haven't gotten to them yet). The fish haven't seen a lot of them in quite awhile (in fact the fish that got bored with them died several generations ago) and the same triggers that worked then are still operative. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| PaulRoberts | February 18th, 2011, 2:25 pm | |
Posts: 1776 | Excellent post, Kurt. From the "What's this post about again?" on. It's about fishing, blown out of proportion by several cabin fever crazed fisherman. | |
| Jmd123 | February 18th, 2011, 6:15 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | Here's a few caveats for you guys: 1) I don't fish that widely, pretty much here in Michigan and a few streams in Oregon, Missouri, and Georgia in the past (not to mention Texas warmwaters), and I don't think I ever said that my own experiences apply to anyone else or anybody else's favorite waters. Which is why I have used the following words several times on different posts: "your results may differ". 2) I don't fish highly pressured waters. They are not my cup of tea, and there are more than enough waters in Michigan to find yourself alone on. I also do the vast majority of my fishing alone and that's just fine, as I really don't enjoy crowds or waiting in line for a particular hole or fish. Therefore, I am not fishing to fish, trout or otherwise, that have seen every single fly in the Orvis catalogue or Fly Fisherman back issues. I don't go fly fishing to solve intricate puzzles, great mysteries, or calculus problems, I go to enjoy myself. 3) If I fish new waters upon which my short list does not satisfy my need to enjoy myself as stated above, I am more than willing to expand my repertoir of favorite flies. I am not one to bang my head against a wall in the hope that the wall will eventually fall down. 4) Spence is indeed a friend and fishing buddy, however his story about the trained mouse was both simplistic and insulting. No worries though, I'll just get back at him by catching another fatboy right in front of him in one of his favorite holes... Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Jmd123 | February 18th, 2011, 6:17 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | P.S. Kurt, how the F*CK do you tie a freaking size 20 Royal Wulff????? I tried 16's once and got totally frustrated...Do you use a dissecting scope or something?? JMD | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | February 18th, 2011, 11:32 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Spence - Hahahaha! Paul - Thank you for the compliment. You are obviously a man of incredible discernment and brilliant intellect. Jonathon - Skill. Have you guys noticed I like to stir the crap? I'm going back to the bench and knock out some more little Wulffs.... Regards, Kurt | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Oldredbarn | February 19th, 2011, 8:42 am | |
 Posts: 2608 | Paul, I think you are on to something...Cabin Fever. My wife is down in Florida tending to her very ill mom, I was sitting downstairs last night watching my boys skate, drinking more beers than my months long diet is used to...I was feeling a little cranky! "Tends to solitude...Doesn't play well with others." My mom once took me to see Bozo when I was a kid in Virginia...She liked to tell the story of how the parents were allowed to watch from behind a glass window as they broadcast the show. Just before they came back from a commercial break they would toss a boxful of little boxes of cookies in to these fake stands where we kids were sitting. All the kids would pile on trying to grab their share of cookies...It was designed to get us kids all geeked up for the cameras. She said her son would just sit there, out along the edge of the crowd, with with his arms crossed across his chest starring at the other kids in disbelief. In the 60's I lived a block or two from my cousins. We played street hockey without any protective gear, we had boxing gloves, and baseball bats...Someone was bound to get hurt from time-to-time. If someone got hurt badly enough that we couldn't convince him not to tell my aunt Gwen she would sit me at one end of the couch and one of my cousins at the other end, and a third across the room in a chair...I think she was the person who created the first "time-out". I'm going to follow in her foot steps and put myself in a self impossed "time-out" :) until I can again play well with my fellow anglers...When my posts are no longer about trout and trout streams I have somehow been blown off-course. It's time to crank out some flies for the upcoming season and I'll return when I have some nice bug photos to share which is what I came to this site for in the first place. I better do this before Jason sends me to detention :) and bans my ass... I'm going to blow out my last two grumpy posts and get on with it... Just a little over two months until opening day! Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Jmd123 | February 19th, 2011, 10:45 am | |
Posts: 2611 | Hey Spence, remember that there is a potential "opening day" coming up on Sylvan Glen for those warmwater fishies, some of which have spots almost like trout, in about a month...that is, if you're not a complete trout snob and plan on sitting there, arms crossed, waiting another month being fishless...it might just warm up your cranky, cabin-feverish heart. ;oD Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Falsifly | February 19th, 2011, 11:29 am | |
 Posts: 661 | This is playing out like a scene from Grumpy Old Men. Keep it up guys. | |
| Falsifly When asked what I just caught that monster on I showed him. He put on his magnifiers and said, "I can't believe they can see that." | ||
| Entoman | February 19th, 2011, 3:21 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Who you calling grumpy!!!! Ann, Sophia, please don't leave... OK, OK, I'm getting off the computer right now. I promise. | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
| Martinlf | February 19th, 2011, 5:13 pm | |
 Moderator Palmyra PAPosts: 3233 | Great thread, guys. It took the high road, the low road, and a full tour to boot. I don't have a darn thing to add other than "Thanks for the tales and the things to ponder." | |
| "He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell | ||
| Jmd123 | February 19th, 2011, 5:39 pm | |
Posts: 2611 | To those of you experiencing cabin fever, I have an absolute, guaranteed cure: GET OUT OF THE CABIN. I took advantage of the sunshine today and walked through the woods down to the lower Au Sable. I was greeted by beautiful forests, a few old favorite tree species, some interesting wetlands, lovely waters, and even a beaver slapping his tail at me. I highly recommend it. Made me totally less cranky. Spence, get your grumpy ass up here pronto! Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Entoman | March 17th, 2011, 12:20 pm | |
Posts: 2604 | Hi Nutters, Thought I'd post some tiny (size 20) Royal Wulffs as referred to earlier in the thread. The one in the center has been used and caught fish. Great fly for selective situations when the standard stuff isn't working. Emerging caddis? mayfly? Terrestrial? I don't know, it just works a lot of the time and has reduced frustration if you want to stay dry. Shows up real well which is a bonus. Being hoplessly addicted to the notion of "imitation", it's usually the last resort. I know that's a mistake but I can't help myself. Regards, Kurt  | |
| "It's not that I find fishing so important, it's just that I find all other endeavors of Man equally unimportant... And not nearly as much fun!" Robert Traver, Anatomy of a Fisherman | ||
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