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Lastchance	September 21st, 2010, 7:06 am
Portage, PA Posts: 437	I kind of feel sorry for this guy. I have 11 nieces and nephews from age 16 to 30 and I've taken them all fishing and hunting. Some live in cities and all are well-educated, but they understand the importance of nature in their lives. Three of my 4 nephews continue to hunt and fish and several of my nieces remain fisherwomen. All of these nieces and nephews have grown up in the technological world we live in but they continue with their love of the outdoors. They have IPods, Xboxes, cell phones and flat screen televisons. But, one thing they also have is a loving uncle to expose them the important things in life. We all know that they are things we can't touch or hold in the palms of our hands. Fly fishing is only as expensive as we want to make it. Priorities dictate where our money is spent. The same people that say paying $100 for a fly rod is crazy are the same people that will spend $200 on video games. So, what I am really saying here is that I feel sorry for MT for never having been exposed to the intrinsic and spiritual values in life--those things that add color and meaning to our existence. I just think you are uninformed. All the Best, Bruce
Shawnny3	September 21st, 2010, 7:14 am
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Young people are not as involved in fishing or hunting today, but it is not due to the financial strain of those pursuits (although recent and proposed tax increases on ammunition may serve to make shooting sports less accessible). Young people today are more affluent than ever before, and equipment and tying materials are more accessible and of better quality than ever before. For the amount the average young person (or their parent) pays for a month's worth of cell phone, texting, internet, and cable, he could probably outfit himself with a very solid flyfishing outfit. If he were so inclined. Privatization of water makes fishing much more expensive and limits access to those wealthy enough to pay for it, as it has in many places in Europe. But in this country, the major factor is simply disinterest. The electronic fetters already mentioned are in part to blame, but those are just symptoms of the progress of technology and urbanization. In 1900, 40% of working people in the U.S. were farmers. Today, the number is around 2%. A hundred years ago, people commonly killed the meat they ate and raised their own vegetables. Today, nearly no one does that. The disconnect runs deeper than electronics or money - we are increasingly disconnected from the very source of our sustenance. Part of that disconnect is just the natural progression of technology, but for the flyfisherman, someone who values the solitude and meditation of a quiet pursuit, it is also a bit sad. How important it is to silence the noise of modern life for a time. But if someone has never experienced or understood silence in the first place, I suppose it could be a really uncomfortable thing to spend a few hours flyfishing. It is no wonder he wouldn't take up the sport. No need to worry about the future of the flyfishing, though. There will always be the occasional romantic who will appreciate it precisely because it is the opposite of so many things in the modern world. Let's just hope that when that romantic attempts to take up the sport, Donny B. doesn't own all the water. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
SlateDrake9	September 21st, 2010, 7:36 am
Potter County, PA Posts: 144	MT319, B!TCH AND WHINE, B!TCH AND WHINE. People with attitudes like you are why I don’t like people my age and rarely spend any time with them. There is a disconnect within this generation, actually many disconnects, especially with reality it seems. This generation has built a fake reality around social networking, technology and some spin-off of yuppie-ism that I don’t totally understand. I first started noticing it when I was in college (by the way, I was one hell of a baseball player through college-but I still made time to fish, hunt, party with friends, study and chase women). This attitude has now shown up on this board as well. The whole “I gotta have the absolute best of whatever to do whatever” syndrome. Can’t just go out and enjoy a pastime. You have to have all of the top of the line gear and “the look” to do it right. I caught my first trout when I was 3, got my very own fly outfit when I was around 6 (rod, line, reel together for about 20 bucks), learned how to tie flies around 10, started to hunt when I was 12 (would have earlier, but it wasn’t legal in PA back then). I’ve never felt like I was isolating myself while doing these passtimes. Heck, some of my fondest memories with my friends were walking through the woods and fields with a shotgun or rifle or standing in water with a fishing rod. Everyone I know that engages in these pastimes will tell you the same, whether they’re 30 or 87. And let me tell you something about the older guys. They’re not disconnected with the younger generations or society. They just have a collection of real life experiences under their belts that taught them what is and isn’t important. Someday you’ll have a collection of real life experiences and be able to understand their perspectives. B.J.
	Fishing with bait is like swearing in church. -- Slate Drake
SlateDrake9	September 21st, 2010, 7:46 am
Potter County, PA Posts: 144	As for private waters. Spruce Creek doesn’t impress me at all. It just seems too fake. I’m lucky enough that I get invited to a yearly fishing retreat on a private stream (much more exclusive than Spruce Creek will ever be) and have a blast. Yeah, it’s not what I’d call real fishing, but catching 90+ trout a day almost all in the 15-25 inch range, healthy and beautifully colored is a lot of fun. Interestingly, I have never caught my biggest trout of the year at this stream. That fish always comes from a publicly accessible stream.
	Fishing with bait is like swearing in church. -- Slate Drake
Oldredbarn	September 21st, 2010, 8:17 am
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	I think that the "expense" of fly fishing needs some clarification here...In the picture I posted of my 11 year old nephew he's fishing with a Sage Light Line rod that is a few "generations" old in terms of the guys trying to sell you a new rod. I paid $200 for it in the late 90's and it was put together by a good friend of mine...It is a cannon!The reel is a Hardy that I purchased in 1990 and I hate to admit this, I have not serviced it as well as I should of over the years...but it's still going strong 20 years later. There may be an initial outlay of a few bucks, but good stuff lasts for years, a lifetime, and a 20"er never knows if he fell to a guy with a Cabela's beginner fly rod or a guy with a Winston or $3,000 cane rod. Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
RleeP	September 21st, 2010, 10:01 am
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland Posts: 398	Just for the purpose of clarification, the shifting demographic I was speaking of has been fully (and better) expressed by Shawn and others. I'm not talking about generations, but rather about who we are and how it differs from who we were. We are becoming more urban and less rural. We are more affluent with more choices within our reach among the increasing number of things that glitter and take up our time and resources. Because we are becoming more urban and because an interest in the outdoor pursuits are being handed down by fewer and fewer parents/mentors/significant influences, these pursuits are seeing a gradually dwindling stakeholder/user base. It has no more to do with generations (chicks,cool duds, etc. vs. stodgy old guys in flannels with a shirt pocket full of interproximal brushes) than the degree marks on our stream thermometers has to do with causing changes in water temperatures. Both are means of measuring the progress and degree of a change, they are not the change itself. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a chunk of lamb chop stuck between #14 and #15 and have to find a brush to get it out of there...:)
Gutcutter	September 21st, 2010, 1:01 pm
Pennsylvania Posts: 470	floss works better with lamb. however a toothpick is way cooler and i'll bet we can borrow the stylet from mt319's palmpilot to really work between the molars
	All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness
Oldredbarn	September 21st, 2010, 1:40 pm
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Tony, You must of been fun to play against on the ice! You are always stirring the pot...:) Keep your head up in the corners buster! I have bony eldows!!! Gordie Howe taught me how to use them...:) Go Wings!!! Tomorrow night...We are dining on Penquins! Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
RleeP	September 21st, 2010, 2:23 pm
NW PA - Pennsylvania's Glacial Pothole Wonderland Posts: 398	Tony: I'm sure that in general, a toothpick or floss would be better. But you didn't see this lamb.. I think the last thing it did before it met the butcher was an olympic triathlon. It had sinews like bridge cables. If I hadn't paid $26.50 to get it in a French restaurant alongside 8 green beans arranged in a spiral, I probably wouldn't have eaten it. I complained to the Mrs. and she told me to shut up and eat it, that we have to expect to pay a certain amount for "atmosphere". We won't be going there again. Not unless I bring my own lamb...
Lastchance	September 21st, 2010, 4:33 pm
Portage, PA Posts: 437	Just tell her you can't eat atmosphere. It ain't nuttin' if it ain't mutton. Bruce
Aaron7_8	September 21st, 2010, 6:48 pm
Helena Montana Posts: 115	I'm 29 and you are right I use fly fishing to disconnect from our urban world (if you can call Helena MT an urban environment, insert laughter from the east coast). I started with a hand me down rod, forty dollar waders, twenty dollar line, and a twenty nine dollar reel. It is as expensive as you want to make it. I know we have all seen ad's for ten thousand dollar reels and six hundred dollar waders. If you aren't the smartest one in class it doesn't mean you can't work your way into an "A" grade, but you are going to have to work harder for it, it won't be handed to you, just like big fish, you gotta earn them, or if you are lucky enough just pay for them. I am not here to judge which one is more rewarding that is up to you.
Dryfly	September 21st, 2010, 8:16 pm
rochester mn Posts: 133	I am 18 and resent being called a recluse and as a matter of fact I can function in society well enough to have a part time job. How is sitting in front of a TV or game console more exciting than watching a big brown annihilate a streamer or hopper. Hell fishing to actively rising trout is pretty damn fun. I can think of several occasions when my heart rate has skipped a beat when a fish takes.MT, do feel that fly fishing is boring? If so try night fishing. Fly fishing is no more expensive than being an avid gamer. buy 10 games new a year at 70 bucks a piece thats 700 bucks a year which is enough for a top of the line, rod, reel, flies, hippers, cheap vest, accessories. Plenty of kids my age have jobs too, so they could buy their own gear. Not all fly fishers are of the over-fifty-tweed-jacket-dries-up-and-across group. If you're skeptical check out the drake.
Motrout	September 22nd, 2010, 6:06 am
Posts: 319	Yeah, you don't need much money or access to private water to enjoy fly fishing-that's purely a myth. If you insist on fishing water where you'll have a good chance of catching a five pound trout every time out, then you might need to join one of the expensive clubs, but otherwise there is plenty of good public water out there throughout the country- I fish a lot of good water, and never pay for access (unless you count the $2 a day parking fee at my favorite spring creek.) And gear, as I already said, doesn't have to be expensive. You can spend $3000 dollars getting set up or 50 bucks, it's pretty much your choice. Neither way of doing it is wrong. To those who say fly fishing is a reclusive sport, I can't really say I agree with that. Solitude is an important part of it, but I also know I enjoy spending time on the stream with friends who also appreciate the outdoors more than just about anything else. Our society places a lot of importance on facebook, twitter, I-phones and other such things and very little attention on getting outside in nature and seeing what there is to see. It's very easy to have no connection with nature, and that's a very bad thing for society. Without a connection to nature, we have no real connection to reality. And there's my rant for the day... Sorry about that.
	"I don't know what fly fishing teaches us, but I think it's something we need to know."-John Gierach http://fishingintheozarks.blogspot.com/
Tuna	September 22nd, 2010, 6:45 am
Altoona, PA Posts: 16	Just like most people my age, I'm 25, this guy is living in his own little world that he created himself. I've been working 40 hrs a week since I was 16 and in High School. School 8-3 work 4-11, Monday through Friday. Now I work 50-60 hrs a week, and still make time to fish over 200 days a year. If you want something and think its too expensive or its too hard, then to you it will be. But to me, when I want something, I think, man I have to work my a$$ for whatever it is, but in the end it will be worth even more to me. I've introduced several of my friends to flyfishing, not 1 of them has spent more than $150 getting what they need to get by. I don't make alot of money either, a few hundred a week, and sure there might be "stuff" that I would like to buy that is expensive, but do I really need it? NO. A cheap rod and reel combo with line and leader can be purchased for $50-$100. Stop at a fly shop and buy a few flies, maybe $20. A cheap pair of boot foot waders at K-Mart, $60. It doesn't seem too expensive to me. Most college kids I know are too worried about partying and video games and computers to even think about having a job. Besides, their mommies and daddies will help them out anyway. MT, quit making excuses and go after what you want, last time I checked JOBS are FREE, get one and STFU. >>>>Yea I know man...that's a load of "horse maneur" just like you're not out of touch with present day society...we're not talking about "36 year olds" were talking about kids in their teens and 20's...simply put why the hell would anbody drop a couple hundred on fly fishing stuff and go isolate themselves in the woods somewhere when they can go spend their limited resources on both neccesities and associating with friends, girls etc.. unless they were some fuckin recluse or had an anxiety disorder and accordingly could not function within the rest of society.
	Reel men play with their flies.
Tuna	September 22nd, 2010, 6:46 am
Altoona, PA Posts: 16	^^^^--- Most of my friends fit into this group, and they would rather isolate themselves flyfishing before they would party or chase girls. Besides that most of my friends, that I hang around, don't even get out of bed until 2pm, and most days in the summer I'm just getting done fishing at that time. When was the last time someone held a "college" party during daylight hours, which is when I would be fishing anyway? Flyfishing has not changed any of my friendships, except for gaining a few new ones, and in fact, most of my friends who have never flyfished have asked me several times to take them along so they can see what it is all about. Cry me a river buddy. P.S. -- Spruce Creek is a joke of what it once was or still could be. Privitization of small streams in general is a joke. Donny B is a joke, a big, fat, greedy, and stupid joke. I just hope that someday he will see what he has really been doing to out great streams, and I hope he feels terrible about it. He can keep the pelletheads, I'd much rather catch a 10" wild brown than a 24" hand fed slob of a fish.
	Reel men play with their flies.
SlateDrake9	September 22nd, 2010, 7:11 am
Potter County, PA Posts: 144	Hey Tuna, If you ain't aware of "college" parties in the middle of the day, you've never been to Morgantown, WV. Great place to visit. I don't think I would have graduated if I went there though, too much partying to be had.
	Fishing with bait is like swearing in church. -- Slate Drake
Martinlf	September 22nd, 2010, 11:33 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	I'm happy that this whole controversy got stirred up partly to see the most recent posts and hear those voices. I'll also note that some of the younger guys I've met on the stream are phenomenal anglers with a real passion for the sport and very sharp skills. If fewer people are picking up the sport, it is clear to me that some of those who are will carry on the legacy proudly. I'm glad to see the diversity of views and ages on this board.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Troutnut	September 23rd, 2010, 2:12 am
Administrator Bellevue, WA Posts: 2737	MT's very off-base here, and not terribly articulate. I'm 29 and I started this site when I was about 23. I know plenty of other people my age or younger who fly fish actively and well. The cost really isn't prohibitive, and the internet makes it easier than ever to learn without being shown in person, as well as to meet up with other like-minded anglers. If there are fewer young people fly fishing now than in the past, it's probably just because there's more competition for entertainment, and because more people in general are growing up in troutless urban/suburban areas.
	Jason Neuswanger, Ph.D. Troutnut and salmonid ecologist
Oldredbarn	September 23rd, 2010, 7:55 am
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Jason, I agree with what you are saying here, but our sport has never been, as a percentage of the population, all that popular with the general public. There may have been a small spike in the public's interest/awareness of fly fishing with , "A River Runs Through It", but for the most part it's just us weird-o's in here! :) We wander aimlessly through the woods. We stand around in the middle of streams in waders waving our hands about trying to catch a small mayfly. We stare, bent over logs & boulders, at crawly things others don't even know exist and would never actually touch if they happened to bump in to one. If you don't believe me that we attract an odd lot to our sport look in the faces of the "regular" folk in the canoes that may pass you when you are out in the middle of the woods...You can almost hear them saying, "Now don't say anything to it and maybe we can just slide on by and it won't bother us. How in the hell did it get out here in the middle of nowhere anyway?!" My wife likes to call me her "Nerder Birder" for fun but even she thinks I'm flat out bonkers! Yesterday morning in front of our office we found a small bird that had slammed in to the front window and died. After we opened the office her husband who is 56 was back out examining the bird in a dress shirt and tie, in front of a busy office complex, trying to ID the bird... I have a question here. Does it count as a "Life Bird" if it's dead? :) In other words, can I add it to my list? As rare as it may sound, our office is on the urban/country edge, I believe it was a Swainson's Thrush (Catharus ustulatus)...He was probably being chased by the Cooper's Hawk (Accipiter cooperii)we saw this morning nearby as we rode in to work today. I was glad that I saw the trash truck this morning or I may have been in the hopper giving it another look after reading up on it's finer points last night... Anyway...I hope I haven't scared away any more of those youngsters out there...They think the monsters in their video games are scary...They have never come face-to-face with a hellgammite or had a Sphinx moth slam in to their face on the river after dark...Now that will wake you up a bit! I say to each their own, but we all could use a little more tolerance for those not in the "club", whatever club that may be...If you treat my river with the respect I think it deserves you won't have any problems with Spence... A nickels worth of opinion from Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood
Shawnny3	September 23rd, 2010, 9:18 am
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	You are a really funny guy, Spence, and I mean that in the best possible way. Nice post. I, too, have been known to spend a lot of time poring over dead birds. When we pass roadkill, I'll look over at my wife, and she'll say, "Don't even think about it," without even turning to look at me. You are correct - we are an odd lot. But that's why the future of our sport is so bright - people are only getting weirder all the time. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com

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