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| Jesse | April 18th, 2010, 11:06 am | |
 | So everybody i met this man while fishing on one of my favorite spots thus far on the Bitterroot River this past weekend. I won't say any names but he works at a fly shop here in Montana. Anyway we got to talking about where we were from, and he just moved here a few years ago from central PA. Now because i am from northeastern PA i asked him what brought him to Monatana, and his response kind of baffled me. He talked of the central waters of PA having 5ft wide pathes leading to every best hole, and working all day to maybe catch one fish, and also how there is just so many more fish in these western waters in town. He also pretty much laughed when i defended some of the northeastern waters, and told me im way better off staying in MT as far as fishing goes. Basically he bashed the waters of the east, particularly PA's. Now i have to say i agree with some of the points such as the actual volume of water that holds fish in many of these western waters, but i mean come on now! Personally i feel like maybe he just couldn't handle the WILD WILD EAST ha. But i just wanted to hear some opinions on the topic...? | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| Jmd123 | April 18th, 2010, 11:41 am | |
 Posts: 2611 | So Jesse, where does the "midwest" fit into this scheme of things? Let me know if you bump into any disillusioned Michiganders out there, because I'd be pretty surprised to hear of anyone bashing OUR fishing. It's really rediculous how many guys you can run into on the Rifle River during the steelhead run, yet I can't remember how many beautiful July eveinings I've had that water completely to myself, flies all over the water, browns rising left and right, few to no mosquitos, etc. And most paths that are used along that stream see far more traffic from deer than humans (not to mention the occasional mink). I don't think my fellow Michigan contingent would be willing to give up our Michigan waters for anywhere else in the world. In fact, my own fly fishing experiences in Oregon in the early 90s convinced me that I really don't need to look elsewhere. But, to each their own! Keep nailing those big beautiful brownies like that one you showed off a couple of months ago, man! Jonathon | |
| No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere... | ||
| Softhackle | April 18th, 2010, 12:57 pm | |
 Site Editor Wellsville, NYPosts: 540 | Jesse, I do not fish many PA waters, but I do live in NY. As for me, I've never been "out west", and probably never will. I'd like to fish, there, someday, but chances are I won't. There are a number of different reasons. First, I don't have the money to travel out west, spending money on gas or flying, lodging and license fees. My family is HERE, so moving there is out of the question. I guess if I were single and young, I might consider it. Most of us MUST make do with what we have, not that I'm saying it's better "out there". We put our efforts in to making what we have, better. I believe there are many great spots to fish in the east, it's a matter of locating them, improving them, and protecting them. Perhaps your friend just got tired of looking and has no taste for making things better. The grass ALWAYS looks greener on the other side of the fence, and it is often easier to just move away and not try to improve conditions where you are if that's what's needed. It's somewhat true that the west has a certain amount of attraction, however the east offers water which is deep seated in fly fishing history. We need to cherish it all, protect it all, and continuously improve it all IF we are to continue fishing. One MUST learn to appreciate what they have. I have a good friend who lives in west Yellowstone, on the Madison. He continuously begs me to come there, but for some of the reasons mentioned, above, I've not been able to go. He wants me to come to visit to exchange ideas, tie flies, create art, and fish, but fishing is the least concern. It's an extra added attraction. I guess it hinges on the fact that I've learned that fly fishing is not always about catching fish. It's the participation, the sharing and the experience that make it so great. Enjoy your time on the water no matter where you are. To somewhat paraphrase Alfred Miller (Sparse Grey Hackle), " The trout do not rise in Woodlawn Cemetery--Fish when you can." Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html | ||
| Motrout | April 18th, 2010, 1:17 pm | |
 | I really have no particularly preferences for streams in the east, midwest, or west. My favorite trout water is the one I'm fishing on at the moment, wherever in the country that may be. I will say that I have fallen in love with some western streams I've fished, but I can say the same thing about, say, the West Branch of the Ausable in New York, or the Current River here in Missouri. I prefer remote trout streams that are in pretty country, but you can find plenty of those in the east, west, and in between. | |
| "I don't know what fly fishing teaches us, but I think it's something we need to know."-John Gierach http://fishingintheozarks.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Gutcutter | April 18th, 2010, 3:25 pm | |
 Posts: 470 | jesse it would be interesting to find out how long this guy actually fly fished back east before he moved to montana "a few years ago". from my point of view (and i must explain that i have fished in montana, wyoming and idaho many times) i suspect that what he is finding is that there is so much water and so few fishermen and that the trout are "easy" and the scenery/solitude is magnificant. however IF he has fished any of the technical waters (henry's fork, paradise valley, missouri, madison...) during the "tourist hatches" then he would find that the conditions are very similar to central pa - crowds and difficult fish. we central pa spring creek fisherman (letort, yellow breeches, spring, spruce, fishing, little j, lehigh...) have a distinct advantage over the guys that only know how to prospect water with a royal wulff or humpy. sure you can have 50 fish days throwing an attractor dry or bobber fishing a stonefly nymph on the yellowstone in july, but that is not gonna happen on armstrong's during the pmd hatch. i was fishing (guideless) on a spring creek and a guide fishing a client downstream from me kept looking over his shoulder as i hooked fish after fish while his guy went fishless. while crossing paths around lunchtime he asked how often i fish there and i told him "about every few years" and he looked at me funny and asked "well, where are you from?" when i answered "pennsylvania" he shruged and said "oh" as if it were ok for me to smoke him and his client 'cause i was used to fishing very pressured and selective fish. sure, the rockies are awesome and the water is clean and the hatches are terrific but we have it pretty good back here, too. | |
| All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness | ||
| Jesse | April 18th, 2010, 7:14 pm | |
| Keep them coming guys it's great to hear everyones different opinions. It's funny because i agree with different thoughts that all you guys have. One things in particular however that you said gutcutter that reeally sticks out is the advantage i feel when i fish theses waters. Not to boast at all, but sometimes i feel them to be relatively easy compared to a lot of the waters out east just like you mentioned. Absolutely gorgeous, and very challenging at times but i find a lot of my friends here asking me the same thing that guide asked you ha! Anyway i want to here more thoughts, thanks guys! | |
| Most of us fish our whole lives..not knowing its not the fish that we are after. http://www.filingoflyfishing.com | ||
| CaseyP | April 19th, 2010, 7:11 pm | |
 Posts: 653 | y'know, both Pennsylvania and Montana have been very good to me. they're different, thank Heaven, and they each offer a lot of different types of fishing, so surely there is something for everyone. and "everyone" is better at some kinds of fishing that others. hence, favorites. one man's meat...:-) | |
| "You can observe a lot by watching." Yogi Berra | ||
| Wbranch | April 20th, 2010, 5:31 am | |
 Posts: 2733 | While I have limited experience fishing PA rivers I have fished Spring Creek, Yellow Breeches, Big Spring, Falling Springs, Fishing Creek, and Little Juniata. There is simply no comparison between Montana and PA trout waters. None at all - my worst day on any of the tailwaters in MT or any of the spring creeks is still far better than two best days on any of the PA waters I have fished. The MT freestone rivers are also very good and if one has even just a modest skill base they should be able to have good days on the freestones. Montana Rocks! I fish PA only when I can't fish NY. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Gutcutter | April 20th, 2010, 9:18 am | |
Posts: 470 | i absolutely agree with matt. the fishing is better in montana. it is probably more challenging on the pressured waters in montana, too. however, the folks who fish "non western" pressured rivers, streams and spring creeks (whether in the midwest, east or new england) are probably gonna do better than others who don't. | |
| All men who fish may in turn be divided into two parts: those who fish for trout and those who don't. Trout fishermen are a race apart: they are a dedicated crew- indolent, improvident, and quietly mad. -Robert Traver, Trout Madness | ||
| Softhackle | April 21st, 2010, 6:27 am | |
Site Editor Wellsville, NYPosts: 540 | Hi, I find some of the responses very interesting. As I said, I've not fished in Montana, however, is the criteria for evaluation of a place set to quantity of fish caught = quality of fishing? It seems it may be. If that is the case, that is somewhat disappointing to me. Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html | ||
| Flatstick96 | April 21st, 2010, 8:10 am | |
 | East v. West? I've fished both, and as someone who now lives in neither place, my answer is: who cares - be happy if you're lucky enough to be ANYWHERE with good trout fishing! (Yeah, I miss really good trout fishing, and I'm not above complaining about it...) :-) | |
| Oldredbarn | April 21st, 2010, 9:55 am | |
 Posts: 2608 | Mark, "is the criteria for evaluation of a place set to quantity of fish caught = quality of fishing?" For me the answer to your question is a resounding no. They used to call Montana, "the last best place" though. It's a mind boggling place in terms of scenery and fishing, but some of my fondest memories while out fishing, didn't neccessarily have to do with fishing. Somewhere there is something called "the evolution of a fisherman" and it lists the different stages an angler goes through during his fishing life. Big fish and numbers of big fish are on the list...The western rivers may have us beat in spades in this regards, but I have midwestern memories I wouldn't give up for love nor money as they say. I'm a sick son-of-a-bitch and no doubt need some psychoanalysis...I'm called "Mr. Lore" by my fishing partner when he's not calling me "Mr. Hockey", but I fish with ghosts...My grandfather who took me in to the woods when I was a dink and taught me to pay my respects. I fish in a river that Henry Ford & Edison fished and have fished in front of the Barbless Hook where TU was born in 1959. I fish with Ernie Schwiebert, Earl Madsen, Clarence Roberts, George Griffiths, Craig Perry, and Carl Richards and this weekend, unfortunately I'll be fishing with the ghost and memory of a good friend Rusty Gates. Anyway...I'll promise to poke some trout while I'm wadering aimlessly in the river, but my head's not always on the fishing... I agree with Tony when he hinted that a guy that can catch his fair share of trout in the pressured waters of PA, NY, or MI, will do really well out west. Mr. Brown Trout on the Au Sable, when he gets big, doesn't fall easily to the novice...He hides up under brush and logs in the river or snugs up next to an under cut bank and won't move an inch one way or the other no matter how proud you are of the fly you tied on or how marvelous your cast...It ends up in the right place, at the right time, with no drag, or it floats right on by him. He can humble the best of them and he doesn't give a damn that you are having a problem...He's oblivious to it. Take what you have learned on your home waters west and enjoy yourself. Myself, I'll be looking for a spot this weekend that doesn't look like the Lodge in downtown Detroit at rush hour. Earlier in the week they were calling for bad weather in Grayling and I was very happy...I have my Baetis and a rain coat and was thinking it may keep some of the weekend warriors in the bars and opening day parties and I'd have the river to myself. Today's weather report calls for near 70 and little chance of rain...Don't worry...I have a few Little Black Caddis as well...Hennie's? Little Slate-Winged Mahoganies? I think I've got it covered. You think Spence is pumped a bit?! Tightlines Troutnuts!!! Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Oldredbarn | April 21st, 2010, 11:34 am | |
Posts: 2608 | Guys I'm in the mood! No stopping me now... Check this out: http://www.tu50.org/site/c.qkIZL6MMJrE/b.5384767/k.4AD/Photos__Art_Neumann.htm Spence | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Wbranch | April 21st, 2010, 3:15 pm | |
Posts: 2733 | Mark wrote - "As I said, I've not fished in Montana, however, is the criteria for evaluation of a place set to quantity of fish caught = quality of fishing? It seems it may be. If that is the case, that is somewhat disappointing to me." Absolutely not! Why would you presume "it seems it may be?" That may be your hypothosis but it is totally incorrect. BTW going to Montana need not be a costly undertaking. I've gone to MT at least thirty-five times over the last forty-two years and never spent more than $1200 for a ten day stay. That is including air fare, lodging, license, car rental, and all meals. Since 1993 I've had a partner to split the cost of the car and lodging but still $120 per day is quite reasonable. Do I catch lots of fish? You betcha but none are caught on tippets heavier than 5X and many are on 6X and no fly is larger than a #16. I fish only to fish rising along the banks and drift along in my pontoon boat (which I leave at the outfitters all year) until I locate a fish. I ease out of the 'toon, gently let out the anchor and begin a stalk to put myself in a good casting position. Sometimes I might fish over one fish for an hour and other times they come quite quickly. I consider 10 - 12 fish a stellar day - these are large wild fish and those fish will all be in the 17" - 21" range with a likelihood of at least one a day in the 22" - 23" range. Show me a river in NY or PA where you have steadily large rising trout from 8:00 in the morning until 10:00 at night, that is not some goofy private water like Spruce Creek, and I'll buy dinner. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Dryfly | April 21st, 2010, 4:36 pm | |
| rochester mn Posts: 133 | It's true, there is no good trout fishing outside of Montana. ;) | |
| Oldredbarn | April 21st, 2010, 6:48 pm | |
Posts: 2608 | Shane, You are my kind of angler..."No good fishing outside Montana"...Lets you and I send everyone there and you and I will be alone...You in the Driftless and Spence on the Au Sable...Sounds like a plan to me fella! You so smart! :) Spence My fishing buddy wants them all to go play golf...Fly fishing is too difficult, right? When they give up the sport we can clean up on discounted gear... | |
| "Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood | ||
| Wbranch | April 22nd, 2010, 1:28 am | |
Posts: 2733 | "It's true, there is no good trout fishing outside of Montana." That's not exactly what I said or inferred. Good, or maybe even, great fishing is very subjective. A lot of guys love the thrill of hiking in to one of their little wild brook trout gems and catching 9" jewels in streams 4' wide. Other people want to go to Maine, or Quebec, to fly fish for giant brookies. Those places are preferable for them. I happen to want to cast small flies to larger than average wild trout. I'm fortunate enough to fish certain NY rivers that have high percentages of wild trout 16" - 20" and occasionally get lucky and catch a few. However the Western rivers I like to fish just have more large trout per mile than any eastern river I've fished and they rise more consistently. They are not pushovers either. | |
| Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years. | ||
| Softhackle | April 22nd, 2010, 9:49 am | |
Site Editor Wellsville, NYPosts: 540 | WBranch, I'd be happy to take a 10 day trip to Montana if you will send me $1200 to do so. Heck, I wouldn't mind a week! I'd want to go, not because I think it's better there, but because I'd like to experience it. To a lot of people, myself included, $1200 is a lot of money to spend on a trip, especially when you have to worry about how to keep your car on the road or food on the table. Gas is going up, again, and when your total income for two people is about $26,000/year, you watch your bucks. It reminds me of fly fishermen who think you can't enjoy what you are doing unless you have a $700 fly rod, $400 reel, $90 line, $300 waders and a $200 vest. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying one place or another is better, what I am saying is that you can enjoy it no matter where you go IF YOU KNOW HOW. You don't need to catch 50 fish a day, nor do they have to be 25" long. You just need to know how to enjoy what you have. Flatstick96 and Spence, I'm with you guys! Your points are well taken. You must enjoy the place you are in and if you can, you'll never have to worry about being satisfied. Mark | |
| "I have the highest respect for the skilled wet-fly fisherman, as he has mastered an art of very great difficulty." Edward R. Hewitt Flymphs, Soft-hackles and Spiders: http://www.troutnut.com/libstudio/FS&S/index.html | ||
| Motrout | April 22nd, 2010, 6:07 pm | |
| I guess I just don't get this whole argument over east vs. west. Sure, there are more miles of trout water out west, and sure, there is more tradition out east, but I think both of those things are kind of beside the point. I know I like being on a pretty trout creek anywhere. I frankly couldn't care less if it's in Montana, Pennsylvania, or Missouri. Fishing is really just about getting out there in nature, relaxing, and having a good time, or at least that's the way I view it. I don't feel a need to be on a "fashionable", stream, or even one that has an exceptional trout population. You can learn to love the water near where you live, or you can be constantly disatisfied. For example, I live in Missouri. Compared to the Eastern mountainous regions or the Rocky Mountain west, the trout fishing is pretty darn poor. Still, I've learned to love the local streams, just because they are what I can fish on a regular basis. It's not that I haven't fished the so called "glory waters". I have, on both sides of the country. On the Western side I've fished the Madison, Yellowstone, Big Hole, Bitterroot, and Clark Fork. On the Eastern side I've fished the West Branch of the Ausable and a lot of other relatively famous Adirondack rivers. I liked fishing all of these places-it was a lot of fun. But I can't say I enjoyed fishing them any more than I now enjoy fishing the little wild trout creek an hour down the road, where the fish don't often top eight inches, and you don't catch a lot of them. Just appreciate what you have folks, and don't listen to the criticism that others have for your home waters. | |
| "I don't know what fly fishing teaches us, but I think it's something we need to know."-John Gierach http://fishingintheozarks.blogspot.com/ | ||
| Dryfly | April 22nd, 2010, 8:15 pm | |
| rochester mn Posts: 133 | Wbranch I was kidding. As Motrout said above, do what makes you happy. If that's the "uncrowded" waters of montana, fine. Or eastern streams. Or Midwest creeks and rivers. If you're having fun, then you are where you should be. I do not buy that the east is crowded and the west is not or, there is more big fish out west. P.s There is goofy private water in Montana too, pretty well known too. Just sayin' | |
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