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> To debarb or not to debarb, Page 2

Jmd123	January 23rd, 2008, 2:37 pm
Oscoda, MI Posts: 2611	Louis, that sure would work, and save a trip to the hospital (and how many $$$?). I saw my first ever shark (Atlantic sharpnose, around 30", bottom fishing off GA coast) unhooked in a very similar fashion. Why waste perfectly good fishing time waiting to see a doctor? As I said, this works fine if the hook is not too deeply buried! Jonathon
	No matter how big the one you just caught is, there's always a bigger one out there somewhere...
Flybinder	January 25th, 2008, 6:57 pm
Oregon Coast Posts: 60	WBranch; If you're talking about "Grabbing a fish's lower lip, without lifting the fish from the water to remove the hook", are you referring to a "Boga Grip"!? That's the only "pliers like" fish grabbing tool, I've ever seen!? They're used a lot, in saltfishing and also some use them on Large Mouth Bass. But, with the way they work, I think they'd tear the hell out of any trout's mouth!?! The best, "leave the fish, in the water and remove the hook tool" I've ever used, is the "Ketchum Release tool", found at about ANY fly shop, I've ever set foot in. They're super easy to use, light weight enough to hang off a zinger and very, very, easy and quick to use for dislodging hooks.
	Flybinder: "You should'a been here, NEXT week,the fishing's great!"
Martinlf	January 25th, 2008, 7:55 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	There is a new boga grip designed especially for trout. I think Matt is curious about whether or not they work as advertised. I'd like to know also. I'd think they might be best on bigger fish. I believe the Feather-craft catalog has them. I like the Ketchum release tool, though it doesn't work all the time. The hook has to be easily accessible.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Martinlf	January 25th, 2008, 7:55 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	There is a new boga grip type tool designed especially for trout. I think Matt is curious about whether or not they work as advertised. I'd like to know also. I'd think they might be best on bigger fish. I believe the Feather-craft catalog has them. I like the Ketchum release tool, though it doesn't work all the time. The hook has to be easily accessible.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Wbranch	January 26th, 2008, 1:20 pm
York & Starlight PA Posts: 2733	The tool I'm referring to looks similar to the shape of traditional needle nose pliers but instead of the narrow needle nose configuration each half of the plier jaw has a radius about 1/2" on each side and the manner in which the jaws are designed is that they do not come together and touch when closed. The intention here is for the angler to grasp the fish, while it is still in the water, with this tool. the upper jaw goes inside the trout's mouth and the lower jaw is under the outside of the jaw. When pressure is applied to close the jaws they still allow the trout freedom to move and the jaws won't, supposedly, close enough to injure the fish. Here are two styles;
	Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Andyg	February 4th, 2008, 6:23 pm
Eastern Sussex co., NJ Posts: 13	Having seen how a sharp barb can cut a twisting trout's mouth, my conscious makes me bend the barb before the hook is put into the vise. The resulting "bump barb" holds suprisingly well, so well that I had to go to a hospital for assistance in removing a streamer hooked in my cheek and had to seek another angler's help to take a size #18 nymph out of my finger! And, dropper flies are forever getting caught in my net mesh. Pinching the barb down makes it easier on both me and the fish.
Flybinder	February 5th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Oregon Coast Posts: 60	Yikes! Sorry, and I DO NOT MEAN to insult ANY of my fellow board members, here, by saying this, BUT............... I've seen a few of these "small fish mechanical lip grips" and it sort of worries me when I think of ANY "mechanical devise" in the hands of someone, trying to handle a 12" fish!?! If "the jaws won't close, close enough together, to harm a fish", then that means, (to ME, anyway), that it ALSO leaves enough room between the closed jaws to then cause the fish serious harm, if it can still move freely even with these grips closed on it's lower jaw!?! Maybe for what they're originally intended for............... perhaps 16" fish and up, they'd work okay. But, like a lot of our "make it easier gear", I can see some fishermen getting very use to using one of these tools, thus ALWAYS using it, no matter the size of fish!? Any fish, (say trout), is stressed and harassed, enough to its outer limits of survival, just being hooked, played and brought to the net......... without then ALSO having to be handled, via a mechanical clamp device!?!
	Flybinder: "You should'a been here, NEXT week,the fishing's great!"
Martinlf	February 5th, 2008, 3:52 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	Flybinder, these seem like good cautions, but it is possible that if the device is well-designed it actually might be safer for a fish than being netted. Imagine holding a fish firmly in the water and being able to remove the hook and release it without netting it. I'd be curious about actual users reporting--but we don't seem to have any, so . . .. I myself can't afford to field test one of these, but I am curious.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Shawnny3	February 5th, 2008, 5:06 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	I myself can't afford to field test one of these What?! They don't pay you the big bucks for teaching Chaucer, Louis?! Oh, the humanity! -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
Wbranch	February 5th, 2008, 5:51 pm
York & Starlight PA Posts: 2733	flybinder, "without then ALSO having to be handled, via a mechanical clamp device!?!" I'm not suggesting thst we use this tool - I offered the description and picture based on the original post. If you use barbless hooks and are catching 8" - 13" trout you should be able to keep the fish in the net and remove the hook quite easily. If you are using small barbed Japanese (or other manufacturer)hooks it should still be relatively easy to grasp the fish through the net mesh and use your forceps to remove the hook. I think there is a place for the instruments shown in the photo. If we are catching large trout in the 18" and large class they have quite large teeth. Many fly fishermen also fish for other toothy critters like pike, muskies, various salt water species that have sharp teeth. The Boga Grip is ideal for larger toothy fish while the items in the photo I provided should provide an alternative hook removal method if properly implemented.
	Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Flybyknight	February 5th, 2008, 6:41 pm
Milton, DE Posts: 82	I use a Boga Grip all the time on the few salt water fish that are dumb enough to fall for my fakes, Works great, you do not have to touch them at all, thus avoiding disturbing their protective slime. I de-barb all of my fresh water flies, and the only fish I have lost due to de-barbing, I think, are the small wild naturals that fight explosively.IMHO Dick
	Lightly on the dimpling eddy fling; the hypocritic fly's unruffled wing. Thomas Scott
Flybinder	February 5th, 2008, 11:16 pm
Oregon Coast Posts: 60	(Quoted from my original post):"Maybe for what they're originally intended for............... perhaps 16" fish and up, they'd work okay. But, like a lot of our "make it easier gear", I can see some fishermen getting very use to using one of these tools, thus ALWAYS using it, no matter the size of fish!?" Which, was my point............ I have nothing against Mechanical grips and stated as such. My concern, if my post was read thoroughly, was "what's the consequences when used on small fish, say less than 16"!?! Even then, they make work great, I don't know. But, that was my only concern in my post. Believe me, after almost loosing my hide, to Muskies, Pike, etc, not to mention man salt water fish, I'm a HUGE proponent of Boga grips, in THOSE situations and use them, willingly, myself. I, DO use barbless exclusively and have no problem dislodging any hooked fish, simply using my Ketchum Release tool.
	Flybinder: "You should'a been here, NEXT week,the fishing's great!"
Martinlf	February 6th, 2008, 11:11 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	That all makes sense to me.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
JAD	February 6th, 2008, 3:57 pm
Alexandria Pa Posts: 362	I just saw this post, I use a gripper all the time for Steel heads . Mine looks like the first one in W Branch's post. When the jaws are fully closed their is a eighths inch between the jaws. after using the gripper I think it the ideal thing to grab and hold the fish till I can get the hook out of the jaw. Before I used the tool I would beach the fish in the middle of the winter and foll around trying to find hook. I guess I should add---A net on the middle of the back, in the dead of winter after it gets wet is not a good thing. I a couple more weeks Louis will be able to tell you how he likes to use it, when we fish together. Hope this helps. JaD
	They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
Martinlf	February 7th, 2008, 4:58 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	All right! I guess I better start getting my tackle in shape. Erie, here I come.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Rogklettke	March 24th, 2008, 12:46 pm
Posts: 1	I use debarbed or barbless hooks also for reasons stated by others, so removing a hook from me is not an issue. You just back out a barbless hook. But I do want to recommend the method of removing barbed hooks as several contributors have discussed. I use to be an emergency room physician and have removed many a fish hook. I used a wire to put around the bend of the hook to pull the hook back out opposite to the direction it went in, but a strong string, mono, etc. will work just as well. Be sure what ever you use is strong enough that it doesn't break. Controlling the hook when you "snap" it back is necessary. You can simply push the eye of the hook to the skin as suggested by others before your short "snap," and this is usually adequate with small hooks to prevent them from turning (ie the shaft of the hook rises) and going in deeper, but the hook may still "go flying." With a single hook, I usually used a hemostat (something most fly fisherman carry anyway) clamped on the shank of the hook as near the eye of the hook as possible. I would press towards the skin with the hemostat and push the hemostat at the same time I did the "snap" with the wire/cord. It is a very short "snap" just enough to remove the hook which even with a large hook is less than a few millimeters. Teaching the patient how to do this to save an ER visit next time, took much longer than the actual process. A treble hook or one of several treble hooks as often are present on many spinning and bait casting lures take a little more time as you have to be sure all hooks are under control before and during the "snap." The easiest way to do this is to use a wire cutter, if available, to cut off the "hook of interest" ie, stuck in the person leaving a long shaft. Removal is then similar to above for a single hook. I did wrap the entire lure in towels, etc. once to "save" a favorite lure for a patient, being sure that all none involved hooks stayed that way! However, better control is ideal. This method is quick, easy, doesn't need local anesthetic, and can be easily done streamside which is much cheaper than an ER visit also. Ideally wear glasses to protect your eyes just in case, but if done right, control over the hook is maintained throughout. Wash well with soap and water if possible. I never had any become infected, but I guess that is always possible. Some ER docs still don't know this method, use local anesthesia, and do push the hook through the skin causing more tissue damage. Sorry about the long post, but I hope this helps clarify the very simple method for hook removal that others discussed. Remember to wear glasses fishing also, and have any children you take fishing wearing glasses. A hook in the skin is easy to deal with and doesn't cause much trouble usually, but a hook in the eye!!! Rog
Wbranch	March 24th, 2008, 1:10 pm
York & Starlight PA Posts: 2733	"Remember to wear glasses fishing also, and have any children you take fishing wearing glasses. A hook in the skin is easy to deal with and doesn't cause much trouble usually, but a hook in the eye!!!" This is a very good suggestion. Once upon a time on the Salmon River I saw something that doubtful will ever happen to a fly fisher but stranger things have happened. A guy with a spinning rod had gotten his rig (something like 6 000 buckshot size BB's) stuck in the Compactor Pool. He had very heavy line, maybe 20# monofilament. He kept pulling and pulling and tightening the drag and straining. He was right next to me and I cautioned him, to no avail, and I got out of the water. All of a sudden the rig broke loose and the intense stretching of the mono rebounded right back towards him as lighting speed. It struck him squarely in the right eye. Blood started to pulse out of the eye and he said to me "Do you think I should go to the Doctor".
	Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
JAD	March 25th, 2008, 2:12 pm
Alexandria Pa Posts: 362	Speaking of hook in eye, have you seen this. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/254360/fish_hook_in_the_eye/ John
	They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
Martinlf	May 13th, 2012, 10:50 am
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	OK, I'm bringing this thread back up for a specific reason. If you read my last post under Matt's "May Trout" you'll find specific mention of a Tiemco 100 super point and a lost fish. For about two or three years I've been tying almost exclusively on barbless hooks. One of my favorites has been the Gamakatsu C-15 BV, and I haven't noticed any significant drop off in fish landed in local waters. On my last trip to Matt's favorite big fish water, every large fish I stuck on this hook threw it. I do think my hookset can use some work on these bigger fish, but two guides I talked with there, both of whom have excellent reputations, said they do not debarb their hooks, echoing Matt's comment at the end of page 1 of this thread. At least for these fish, in these waters, I'm returning to barbed hooks in all flies #12 and under. By the way, I have developed a real fondness for the Partridge Surehold Lightening Dry barbless hooks, and will continue to use them, at least around home. Anybody want to buy some Tiemco 100 SP's or Gamakatsu C15's at a discount? There are so many thoughtful and well-reasoned comments in the thread above, as well as some funny stuff, that the ground may be covered fully, but I wonder if anyone else has a new perspective on this topic.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell
Oldredbarn	May 13th, 2012, 1:11 pm
Novi, MI Posts: 2608	Louis, I really don't have anything "new" to add here, but I have had the discussion with myself from time-to-time. I floated with a guide friend some years back on the N Branch of the Au Sable during Brown Drakes...I lost two nice fish right in a row and my buddy started ribbing me that he wasn't going to allow me to pinch back my barbs next time out. The last fish was in a very difficult spot and it would of been nice to have landed him...He was hugged up next to some manmade structure in the river, what Rusty Gates used to call "Trout Hotels"...I was rather pleased with myself until he went under the wood pile and jumped a couple feet out of the water in the slack water behind it and shook the hook which became embedded in something under the structure...It was a few seconds of heart pounding excitement with disappointment the final result...When I told my friend, "Well I think I can count that fish as a "caught" fish" it even sounded a bit hollow to me. :) (I'm not sure that this was a catchable trout where he was anyway...He had the advantage where he was and I hadn't thought out my strategy had he headed in the direction he did). I don't know if it holds water, but I fish a great deal in catch-and-release water that sees a great deal of pressure...In my mind I don't want to tear up the fish too much so I de-barb...As odd as this may sound I do the same in a local river here for small-mouthed bass that is catch-and-release as well...I've had some sweet bass throw the fly back at me as well. I have seen some tore up fish in my life and I really can't say it had anything to do with barbed or barbless...The whole process is violent and prone to damage to our prey...For me I think I can live with not touching every fish I move to my fly, it's the journey, eh? :),the challenge, and I can lie to my vegetarian self that all is well and I've never killed a fish...(Yeah right! ;) Overplaying a trout is probably a more serious problem...My guide buddy says, "Photos kill fish!"...If we aren't going to kill the fish and that's not our intent we need to land them and as gently as possible release them...Hold the fish under the water until it has revived itself enough to strongly swim out of your hand. I have nursed some nice fish in the dark back and have spent sometime after with them until I knew they were ok, even providing a break for them to rest behind downstream of me in the water until they suddenly disappear...I figure its the least I can do after the great exciting fun they have given me...:) The fish story above was on a night before I was to drive back to Detroit...As I was packing my car to leave I made the mistake of telling another guide friend where we were the night before and what went down...Later that week I saw his smiling face on the fishing report page holding a large trout that looked a great deal like the one that threw me...Could it be??? :) Ha! Spence
	"Even when my best efforts fail it's a satisfying challenge, and that, after all, is the essence of fly fishing." -Chauncy Lively "Envy not the man who lives beside the river, but the man the river flows through." Joseph T Heywood

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