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> Dam removal ---Finally Spring Creek get some Help

JAD	September 6th, 2007, 10:08 am
Alexandria Pa Posts: 362	It's about only took Twenty years --http://www.fish.state.pa.us/newsreleases/2007/out_clearwater_mccoy.htm This should also help every thing downstream. JaD
	They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
Shawnny3	September 6th, 2007, 2:43 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	Yup. Very good news, indeed. Unless you're a worm-plunker. -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
JOHNW	September 6th, 2007, 5:46 pm
Chambersburg, PA Posts: 452	OK so I'm going to stir the pot a little here. Spring Creek below Mccoy Dam has a huge diversity of warmwater species, which were effectively cut off from progressing up stream to prey on our beloved salmonids. Is this as positive a step as we all think? OK maybe I stirred the pot alot. That being said I think 90% of the time removing a dam is the environmentally correct thing to do. Especially in the event it restores access to spawning and rearing waters. However how hypcritical is it of "us" (the greater trout fishing community) to support dams that create sport fisheries at the expense of native fishes (game or non-game)? John P.S. Again I'm simply playing devil's advocate but it is something to think about. I realize many of the folks on this board are from the Catskill Region and this is NOT a shot at those folks or anyone in particular. I'm just in one of those moods.
	"old habits are hard to kill once you have gray in your beard" -Old Red Barn
JAD	September 6th, 2007, 6:36 pm
Alexandria Pa Posts: 362	. Spring Creek below Mccoy Dam has a huge diversity of warmwater species, which were effectively cut off from progressing up stream to prey on our beloved salmonids. Is this as positive a step as we all think? . However how hypocritical is it of "us" (the greater trout fishing community) to support dams that create sport fisheries at the expense of native fishes (game or non-game)? John Spring creek is mostly a trout fishery ,So when I said it's about time I meant that they have been talking about removing the dam for twenty years. those fish that live below the dam probably would not be their if the dam had not warmed the water up for their comfort. As for the second point (hypocritical) In my view Yes ----But as my old boss used to say You have to look at the Big Picture. I also believe that cold water fishery pumps a lot more money into a community . john
	They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
Shawnny3	September 6th, 2007, 7:37 pm
Moderator Pleasant Gap, PA Posts: 1197	"those fish that live below the dam probably would not be their if the dam had not warmed the water up for their comfort." That was what I was thinking. I'm no expert by any means on these matters, but when I heard this was happening I began envisioning good trout fishing in lower Spring. Can any of the fisheries biologists on here comment on these possibilities? What's likely to be the fallout? -Shawn
	Jewelry-Quality Artistic Salmon Flies, by Shawn Davis www.davisflydesigns.com
Gene	September 6th, 2007, 8:42 pm
Posts: 107	Gentlemen: The removal of the dam on such a stream is a good thing if your are a trout fisherman no doubt about it. The warm water community of fish, macroinvertebrates, and flora will change over time. This change overall in my estimation should only take a couple of years (I say this from my experiences on streams that had a certain input turned off like the hatchery effluent on Big Spring and the data show how quickly the macroinvertebrates changed etc.). Some of the warm water species may be able to survive in the colder stream depending upon the temperature regime but eventually their populations should decrease and most of them will move further downstream if that is an option. It's true that we have disturbed and destroyed a warm water ecosystem and may be destroyed niches and communities above the damn too. But as someone said most of us consider in the long run and economically the trout would rule. Yes, even as a biologist trout are usually judged of higher economic value to a region. There are couple problems however with breeching dams and this includes that the release of everything sometimes will scour the stream. In this case this should just be temporary damage to the stream substrates. tight lines and nymphal delights gene macri aquatic scientist who will trade a few warm water critters for some more good trout water www.eugenemacri.com
IEatimago	September 7th, 2007, 1:10 am
Spring Mills, PA Posts: 97	even if all the warm water species did not survive, is that even an issue? they don't belong there, man screwed up and accidently created a environ for them, now man is fixing the problem and returning the stream to its "natural" state. is someone calling peta?
Wbranch	September 7th, 2007, 4:36 am
York & Starlight PA Posts: 2733	John W wrote - "However how hypcritical is it of "us" (the greater trout fishing community) to support dams that create sport fisheries at the expense of native fishes (game or non-game)?" This is an interesting comment. Especially if you consider that famous tailwaters like the Big Horn below Yellowtail Dam, the Missouri below Holter Dam, the White River in Arkansas were all warm water fisheries before the dams were built and not a trout existed anywhere within the waters of these rivers. The West Branch of the Delaware before Cannonsville Reservoir was built in the late 1960's was a marginal trout river prior to the installation of the dam and the primary fish were suckers and fallfish. The main stem of the Delaware always had some trout but not nearly the amount it has now. The primary sport fish before Cannonsville and Pepacton were built was the smallmouth bass. The creation of large reservoirs, and the resultant dams, have enabled the modern fly fisher to have access to far more water and fish than our predessors had in the first two thirds of the twentieth century.
	Catskill fly fisher for fifty-five years.
Gene	September 7th, 2007, 9:23 am
Posts: 107	York and Straight: You are correct in the fact that some dams with bottom drops of water have opened up new streams especially trout fishing but your statement that there's more water now for fly anglers than before has little scientific merit. Furthermore, how many salmon rivers of the West have been ruined by dams! Pennsylvania alone had many more streams to fish 50-75 years ago than it does not. AMD alone has destroyed thousands of miles of water. What was fishing like 50 to 75 years ago out West compared to now? I think not too bad. In some states dams may have created a trout fishery but overall ecologically dams tend to do more damage for fish migration and other parameters than they fix. They are at best a mixed blessing in some areas that wouldn't have had a good trout fishery without them. But the damage they have caused to Western Rivers for trout and salmon is serious. gene www.eugenemacri.com
JOHNW	September 7th, 2007, 11:38 pm
Chambersburg, PA Posts: 452	Still playing devil's advocate here: Wbranch wrote: "This is an interesting comment. Especially if you consider that famous tailwaters like the Big Horn below Yellowtail Dam, the Missouri below Holter Dam, the White River in Arkansas were all warm water fisheries before the dams were built and not a trout existed anywhere within the waters of these rivers." I'm not advocating the deconstucting a dams on any of these rivers however the "native species sword" has distinct potential to cut both ways. And JAD wrote: "I also believe that cold water fishery pumps a lot more money into a community" I wonder what the Bass Fisherfolk might think about this? Last time I checked a new bass boat was atleast 10x's the cost of a complete fly outfit. Start adding in all the incidentals like fuel,lodging,bait meals, tackle, launch fees, slip fees ect.. I bet things start to skew toward the income from a warm water fishery very quickly. For example how significant would Huntington be without it's proximity to Raystown How much fishing related income does it see as compared to Spruce Creek for example ( I know poor example as Donny B's little Venture skews the stats). Again just to be clear I'm not firing shots in anger just looking at the flip side of the coin. Why did I have to hang out with the debate team in school? ;) JW
	"old habits are hard to kill once you have gray in your beard" -Old Red Barn
JAD	September 8th, 2007, 7:40 am
Alexandria Pa Posts: 362	Quote---Missouri below Holter Dam, the White River in Arkansas were all warm water fisheries before the dams were built and not a trout existed anywhere within the waters of these rivers." I'm not sure that a accurate statement And if their were a few bass and rough fish in the water Ill bet their a lot more trout now.The attention usually goes where the money is and I don't see where their stocking bass fingerling's , Quote---And JAD wrote: "I also believe that cold water fishery pumps a lot more money into a community" I wonder what the Bass Fisherfolk might think about this? Last time I checked a new bass boat was atleast 10x's the cost of a complete fly outfit. Start adding in all the incidentals like fuel,lodging,bait meals, tackle, launch fees, slip fees ect.. I bet things start to skew toward the income from a warm water fishery very quickly Tail waters ----If were talking Tail waters I'll stand by my statement.The moneys spent on tail water for Trout will far out weigh moneys spent on tail waters bass fishing. Not many 10X's Bass boats running below these dams. Quote--. For example how significant would Huntington be without it's proximity to Raystown How much fishing related income does it see as compared to Spruce Creek for example ( I know poor example as Donny B's little Venture skews the stats). Well were on the subject of Huntington Pa and Raystown ------which now has a Warm water fishery in current use of our water.If they changed the water flow by turning the valve from warm water release to cold water release -----How many more Millions of dollars would flow into Hunington County because of another cold water fishery If you travel along the water below the dam on a summer day you'll be lucky to see ten people using the water change that to cold water -------see what happens. I think if they managed the water shed in that area they could have the best of both worlds. My two cents John Dunn--The other john
	They fasten red (crimson red) wool around a hook, and fix onto the wool two feathers which grow under a cock’s wattles, and which in colour are like wax. Radcliffe's Fishing from the Earliest Times,
IEatimago	September 8th, 2007, 9:39 am
Spring Mills, PA Posts: 97	thats a good point John, bass fishing is like the new nascar.
Martinlf	September 9th, 2007, 12:25 pm
Moderator Palmyra PA Posts: 3233	I'm reposting since I was confused about which dam. It appears that it's not the dam in Bellefonte that is being removed, but one downstream between Bellefonte and Milesburg. I don't know this section of the stream that well, but have caught a few fish down in Milesburg. It will be interesting to see what kind of "stream improvement" is done, and if it will be done by someone who knows how to enhance habitat for trout. Some have suggested local kayakers will benefit the most.
	"He spread them a yard and a half. 'And every one that got away is this big.'" --Fred Chappell

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